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Big Little Podcast Episode 15: Questions from Freedom of Fetish

Released May 29, 2011

Hosts: Spacey, Mako

Guests: Raven

Transcribed by Valentalae. Uncertainty in transcription is indicated with [?]

Part 1

SPACEY: Just after finishing editing this show, we actually got a call on the voicemail line from Aunt Donna. Now, you might remember Aunt Donna from Episode 12, and I thought what she had to say was important, so I want to share it with you now.

AUNT DONNA: Hey everybody, this is Donna, I’m 65 years old. And I just wanna thank Spacey so much for settin’ up that Cure Blood Cancer donation page. Ya see, I had a grand-daughter about five years ago, she passed away from that same disease, bless her little heart. So everybody, look inside yourself and give what you can, even though it’s not a lot. I sure don’t have a lot, but I’m gonna donate the money I spend on a few of those daily lottery tickets I usually get. And I’m gonna browbeat my blind niece into givin’ what she can too. Thanks again for doing this, Spacey, you’re such a good boy! You remember to eat all your wheaties and run good hard and fast now ok? Take care and have a blessed day everybody. And you can use this on the air. SHOWNOTES! HahahahaHAAAA!

SPACEY: Thank you so much, Aunt Donna. If you’d like to help out with our fight to cure blood cancer and support me in running with the Team in Training program for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, you can find our page on the website,, and look for the link, Cure Blood Cancer.

MS. LEMON: You’re listening to the Big Little Podcast.

SPACEY: This is a show by, about and for age players of all kinds.

PSYCHE: We expect our audience to be mature, consenting adults.

LAUREL: Because sometimes the topics on our show are pretty adult too.

MAKO: Just like you.

THYMINE: If you are under 18 and looking for upfront advice about sex, please visit

Intro music

SPACEY: Welcome to the Big Little Podcast, the show by, about and for age players of all kinds. I’m Spacey, and I’m here with my brother.

MAKO: Mako, that’s me!


MAKO: And yet again, we are not alone.

SPACEY: Indeed. I think my brother has a little bit of hero worship again, let’s just call a spade a spade.

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: It’s true.

SPACEY: One of our favorite podcasters is joining us and we’re teaming up to podcast and work this episode. And it’s Raven Lightholme from the Freedom of Fetish podcast, so, welcome!

RAVEN: Hi guys! You don’t need to have hero worship, you’re making me nervous!


RAVEN: I’m not worshipable.

MAKO: Ah, I beg to differ.

RAVEN: Well someone, actually a number of slavie types, but that’s for another episode.


MAKO: Yeah, it was actually kind of amazing. Let me tell you how I developed my little podcrush on Raven.

RAVEN: (Laugh) That’s a good word.

MAKO: I started listening to Freedom of Fetish a while back. For those of you who haven’t heard of it I really recommend it. It’s a really great show for a couple of different reasons. #1 is that it covers a wide range of fetish and kink interests which is awesome. #2, it’s different stylistically from this show. It’s very much about… It’s talky but it’s talky in a very loose way that…

SPACEY: Most of the time.

MAKO: Most of the time. Except for the thing about the law and privacy which is amazing by the way.

SPACEY: Right. Well-structured and varied information.

MAKO: And that is our first SHOWNOTE. But let me say that the reason why I appreciate Raven as much as I do is that she’s very informative, very plain-spoken, and frickin blunt!


MAKO: She tells it the way it is. Sometimes with a little extra sauce (pouring sound effect) glug glug glug glug which is fine.

RAVEN: Oh yes.

SPACEY: (Laughs)

MAKO: And funny. But it’s great. Her most recent episode #28 had a whole bunch of really good stuff about age play. So I was really knocked out when I was at this Momentumcon conference in DC and got to actually meet her! And she was amazing, and told me she was an age player which I didn’t know!

SPACEY: *gasps* I guess the secret’s out now.

RAVEN: (Laughs) Yes. And it’s funny too because I first heard of you when I was listening to the Masocast. Because I remember you were interviewed on that show and I remembered you were interviewed on that show and I remembered like… I was going for a run and I remember that whole interview because it really struck me. I’d heard a couple of… I think it was just a diaper lover, I don’t think he was an adult baby as well, but I heard that on Fetish Flame, which is another awesome podcast, now defunct.

SPACEY: Yeah I miss that one.

MAKO: Yeah they were wonderful.

RAVEN: I first heard about it, then I heard yours and I was just… I think it’s really intriguing. I just think… We’ll get into this I’m sure but, a lot of people say that it’s a the black sheep of the kink community and I… I just don’t get that.

SPACEY: Well we like to think it’s the white, fluffy, powdery nice sheep

RAVEN: It is!

MAKO: (Laugh) The absorbent sheep of the community.


MAKO: That’s awesome. It’s true, there’s a lot of prejudice, a lot of stigma, a lot of shame which is kind of why we’re here, to help people scrape that crap off the bottom of their kink shoe.

RAVEN: Yeah.

SPACEY: (Laugh) Indeed.

MAKO: Oh and I have to just say SHOWNOTES SHOWNOTES SHOWNOTES because we just said like three or four things that I’m definitely gonna… Fetish Flame and the Masocast one… It’ll be there. (Laugh)

SPACEY: Unfortunately, are the Fetish Flame episodes still accessible?

RAVEN: I think so.

MAKO: Their feed’s still out there.

RAVEN: I heard them on iTunes when they had stopped for a while. So I think their site’s still up actually.

SPACEY: Yeah, I really miss them and their podcasting couch, it was so much fun.

MAKO: Yeah.

RAVEN: Yeah. They had kids, that’s why they took a break, because they have spawn now.

MAKO: I had this dream that we were gonna fly out and go to Fulsome and sit on the couch \

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: And I’d be that guy, ya know like that other diaper guy, Dan I think is his name.

RAVEN: Yeah it was.

MAKO: Who I’ve bumped into him a little, he’s cool.

RAVEN: Cool.

SPACEY: Very cool. So, other than hearing about this on podcasts and that kind of thing, I’d love to hear how you first found out about age play and sort of decided that was something you might like to try or get involved in.

RAVEN: Yeah. I mean, it’s… I guess it’s interesting because when I… I would consider myself a taboo fetishist. Like, if I’m not supposed to like it and if it’s weird, it turns me on. So, from a very young age, even when I was little myself I would get off to these daddy/daughter fantasies.

SPACEY: Oh my.

RAVEN: And I have to say of course, disclaimer, I do not wanna bone my dad. (Laugh)

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: I don’t think the vast majority of people who are into this fetish want to have sex with their parents or siblings in real life. It’s revolting to me in real life.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: However…

SPACEY: Indeed.

RAVEN: That’s just always been a huge turn-on for me.

MAKO: Right, the archetype is good.

RAVEN: exactly, yeah. So that was always a big turn-on, but I never told anybody about that because I figured, this is weird, this is something that I’m gonna… This is my go-to get-off thing. And I didn’t see a way of incorporating it into real life. And then I had a series of… Well… I’ve gotten around (Laugh) let’s just say…

MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: In kink and vanilla, And I wasn’t really getting what I wanted ever. I just kept having these crazy, wild, ridiculous experiences which were fun, but I would always have to go in my head to that exploitative, taboo thing and it was usually some kind of daddy/daughter thing. And recently, like within the past year, I started roleplaying that out with people and it’s like… It’s like I’ve found God except I’m an atheist.

SMAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Woohoo!

RAVEN: Like, holy fucking orgasms left and right! So, and I’ve…

SPACEY: That makes me so happy.

RAVEN: Oh me too! (Laugh)

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: And it’s the scene that turns me on. It’s the interaction between those two people, the power dynamic. So, I have been Daddy, but most of the time I’m not. But sometimes…

MAKO: Age play helps!


RAVEN: Yeah. It’s an awesome roleplay and it’s definitely my biggest turn-on.

MAKO: Aah.

SPACEY: Interesting. So I think you just expressed that you have been Daddy, so you like to sort of switch roles? Do you like both roles is what you’re saying?

RAVEN: Yeah. I do it from all different angles. I don’t think daddy/daughter necessarily means dominant father, submissive daughter. So I’ve been like, Lolita who will go after him and make him uncomfortable and do things he doesn’t want to do. And I’ve been the opposite where I’ve been taken advantage of and…

SPACEY: *gasps*

RAVEN: And I’ve been Daddy so I’ve done like a sleep-play scene where I came in in the middle of the night and did horrible things to this girl.

SPACEY: Tsk tsk tsk. (Laugh)

RAVEN: But I know what to do because the fantasy is something we both share whether I’m on either end of it.

MAKO: I think that’s a wonderful thing about the adaptability of switching.

RAVEN: Yeah.

MAKO: I know that when I first started out, I was little almost exclusively, but I love being big too because I know what I like done to me when I’m little, so I like doing it to other people too. (Laugh)

SPACEY: (Laugh) Indeed.

RAVEN: Yeah, it helps to see it from either side, especially if it’s a scenario that the scenario itself is a turn-on it’s not… You’re not relegated to just one part in that scene. And sometimes somebody has to make it happen. Somebody has to be the catalyst.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: And if you want it to move forward and you know how to do that, just suck it up and be Daddy. (Laugh)

SPACEY: Very cool. So one of the things that kind of comes out of that is being somebody who is obviously interested in the general kink scene and then has sort of these age play interests as well, which I consider part of the kink scene but, do you feel like you have to negotiate your age play scenes differently? Do you find that harder, easier? How do you approach that with people? Do you negotiate at all?

RAVEN: Well, the people that I have played with, I met in the general fetish scene and when we started talking about what we were into it sort of came out and then as soon as that came out, these people… We were all really into it. It wasn’t like a, “Yeah I sort of do this sometimes.” It was, “Holy shit! You do that? Let’s go do that right now!” So,

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: It was very easy for me to…

SPACEY: Pass negotiation.

RAVEN: Yeah. I mean… I never sought somebody out specifically for that because I already know several people who I’m really really attracted to who are into this. So I’ve…

SPACEY: That’s very handy.

RAVEN: Kind of got my hands full. (Laugh)So, I haven’t sought it out but I can imagine that there are a whole lot of differences between that and the general kink inquiry, just because we said it before, some people are squicked out by it.

SPACEY: Indeed.

MAKO: I distinctly have the impression though, that into the past five years or so, it’s not quite the out in the boonies weird thing that it used to be. More people know about it and are ok with it and are actually really into it. I feel like almost, age play’s going through a renaissance of some kind.

SPACEY: Certainly has been in our areas, but could you speak to maybe if you’ve noticed the same kind of thing around where you are?

RAVEN: Well, I’ve only been in the public scene for the past maybe five years, and I didn’t even start admitting that I was into this until the past year. So, maybe there are a couple of isolated incidents where I had a roleplay and it was really hot, but it’s only been within the past year or so, and I really don’t know… For me, I’ve met other people I’ve met other people like myself who’ve been kinky for as long as they’ve known, but have only in the past year come out. So in that sense maybe you’re right that that’s what’s going on. Because I think the internet and podcasts and Twitter and the general openness of our generation right now I think encourages people to just fucking get over it.

MAKO: Yay!

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Life is short, it gives you a boner, go get it man!

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: There ya go.

MAKO: I agree.

SPACEY: No argument from us on the Big Little Podcast, that’s for sure!

MAKO: Damn.

RAVEN: (Laugh) Nice.

MAKO: So, I know that you came armed with a boatload of questions from your listeners.

RAVEN: Yes I did. Yes I did, let me scroll through them.

SPACEY: Do we need to get prepared for this? I’m sitting down.

RAVEN: Yeah, just sit down, that’s all you need to do.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: I think the less prepared you are the better, because it’ll just be honest reactions.

SPACEY: Blue! Orange!

MAKO: I’m putting on my serious bandana, I’m ready.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Let’s do this. This is…???

SPACEY: For those of you who cannot see Brother over the podcast…

MAKO: That’d be everybody because we don’t broadcast video.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: (Laugh)

SPACEY: He’s putting on a, fishy bandana?

MAKO: That’s right.

SPACEY: Not quite sharky.

RAVEN: Yeah you can tell he means business. That’s what that says to me.

SPACEY: Definitely.

MAKO: Or I’m gonna make sushi. (Laugh)

RAVEN: Or that, yeah. Ok so let’s just go to the first question. Let’s just jump right into this shit.

SPACEY: Yay! Whoa hey!


RAVEN: “When did you know you were into this stuff? Specifically…”

MAKO: It’s not a poo-cast.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: “…what about ABDL turns you on?” So part 1, when did you know you were into it and part 2, what is it that turns you on?

SPACEY: Well, I think I can speak for both of us when I say that we knew that we were interested in this stuff from our earliest memories.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: I know that I’ve had fantasies about this kind of thing that go back to three years old that I can recall. And that’s just stuck with me my whole life. I mean this is pre-pubescent, pre-interested in sex kind of thing. And as I got older and especially when I hit puberty, those feelings only became stronger. And that’s sort of when the sexual aspect got associated with it as well. One of my first orgasms was in a diaper, so…

MAKO: Hot!

SPACEY: There’s gonna be some relation to that. How about you, Brother? Same thing?

MAKO: Well yeah but a tiny little bit different. For me, it started with spanking. I was obsessed with spanking, I wanted a spanking, I thought about it all the time. I can remember being like, five or six years old and drawing these hideous little cartoons for myself, these little ersatz comic books of someone that happened to look like me getting a spanking form this impossibly tall woman who, interestingly enough, you could never see her face. I used to have dreams about this woman too. I couldn’t see her; she was almost like Nanny on the Muppet Babies cartoon.


MAKO: But she had a wonderful voice, and she smelled really good. And she picked me up and it was like I was being lifted 20 feet in the air and all my clothes were being pulled off and I was getting the crap whacked out of me, but it felt good. And then when I was about twelve or so… No younger, eight or so, we went to go on this trip overseas to China and we had to get passports in a hurry. We went to this passport processing office and, for whatever reason I was done first, so my mom gave me some money to go get comic books, and I went to this little news stand in the building. And there was a Penthouse Variations on the stand that had “SPANKING” in very prominent letters on the front, and I stole that shit!

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: Well, technically I didn’t steal it. What I did was I bought a whole bunch of comic books and that, and I sandwiched it in between the comic books. And the comic books cost, I don’t know like $10, but I gave the guy the whole 20. And he kind of looked at me…

SPACEY: Wink wink, nod nod.

MAKO: Right, and he was like…

RAVEN: “Gotta keep this on the DL, bro.”

MAKO: Exactly. And I hid that thing for hours until we got back to the house and then read it. And there was a letter in there about this guy who had a blind date with this girl and they went back to her apartment. She said, “Hold on, I’m gonna slip into something more comfortable,” and the something more comfortable was a diaper. And in the letter he was completely weirded out, but to me… It was like a cosmic thunderbolt between my eyes and I was like, “That’s a good…”

SPACEY: This is when the angels start singing?

MAKO: (mimicking angel song) AAAAAH! Yeah, “That’s the best thing I ever heard!” And, ever since then.

RAVEN: You know what? You’re not the first person that I’ve heard of saying something like that. Like a variation on going and getting a comic and then seeing one thing, and they were just like, “This is it!”

MAKO: Right. It was like a catalyst or something.

SPACEY: Right.

RAVEN: Since you were into this stuff from a very young age, as was I. So what I think is interesting is you guys, when you regress, you go to a very young age whereas with me, I go to, I’d say like 11-14. I don’t know why that is. I have absolutely no idea. It’s strange because we were both aware of it from a young age and you’d think that it’d freeze there, but for me it didn’t.

SPACEY: Well, I would also say, well for me actually, I know for Brother as well. That age that we go to is not always a specific age. Yes, we are both adult babies and I would say that’s sort of our primary first interest…

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: But, I have a range of ages that I play…

MAKO: Me too.

SPACEY: That I find joy in. I have pictures of me on Fetlife from this recent Frolicon event. When you see me in my little Lolita skirts and that kind of thing, I’m not playing a 2-year-old; I’m playing more of the 14-year-old.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: I’m sort of playing the older age. And I sort of play all those ranges in between.

MAKO: I don’t go maybe quite up that high, if that’s the word for it. 3-6, 7-ish, sometimes I’m all about the diapers and sometimes I’m not. I’m a very Type-A, success-driven, overthinking, overanalyzing person…

RAVEN: Aren’t we all.

MAKO: So… Yeah.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: So, when I’m little, a lot of my being little is about turning that crap off and just being ridiculous. My little is completely ridiculous.

RAVEN: That’s a good part about fetish and kink in general.

MAKO: Oh yeah.

RAVEN: Like, you can… It’s just like… What does… Dan Savage always says, it’s like Cops and Robbers for grownups with your pants off.

MAKO: Yeah!

SPACEY: Indeed.

RAVEN: Because you just like, fuck everything, wear costumes, do ridiculous crap, cover yourself in food, wear a diaper, fuck your dad…

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Like, anything goes, and I agree. You hear all the time that dominatrixes always say that they’re #1 clients are big, CEO male-types.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: And maybe that’s because they can pay and maybe it’s because they’re more likely to go, but maybe it’s because they deal with so much shit all the time that they just don’t want to think anymore. And that’s really appealing to have that helplessness all of a sudden.

MAKO: Well I have a theory about that too. I think that people that go see pro-dommes do so…. Which I by the way I think is a lovely thing. A lot of people look down on sex professionals and I don’t. I’m very sex-positive and I think that being a sex worker of any kind is a good thing.

SPACEY: A valid profession.

MAKO: It is. I think that for a CEO, if you’re the head of like, GM or something, it’s a very risky proposition to tell your wife that you want to wear a Tinkerbell costume and have her slap you with some dry semolina noodles.

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: But if you go to a pro-domme and pay her X-hundred dollars or whatever, you can do so and feel safe about it and still get the outlet, which is one of the reasons why I think it’s a good thing.

RAVEN: Definitely. Now, specifically you mentioned the being helpless and child-like part, but is there anything else about ABDL that turns you on?

MAKO: Oh so many things!

RAVEN: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Yeah I mean in addition to the helpless and child-like, there’re several things I can think of. I mean there are just the tactile sensations of the experience, especially when you take on a very young role. Your whole world becomes about being present in the moment and the sensations that are happening around you. Because, theoretically, and actually a lot of times when I regress, I’m not processing information on the same level as I am, for instance right now on this podcast when I’m telling you how I’m processing information at different times.

MAKO: (Laugh) Right!

RAVEN: Yeah.

MAKO: It’s more visceral.

SPACEY: Indeed. So, it’s about colors and shapes and the feel of that plastic against your skin and the crinkle of it, and the fact that I can’t get my legs quite together when I’m wearing the diaper. So there are those aspects to it.

MAKO: Right, I…

SPACEY: Another aspect…

MAKO: Like, apple juice when I’m big is nice. Apple juice when I’m little is like…


RAVEN: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Yeah, beer? Not so much.

MAKO: Eugh!

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Yeah I heard you talk about that on your show. Agh!

MAKO: (Laugh) So true.

SPACEY: Another aspect is that age play, for a lot of respects when you have a partner, is also a power dynamic. There’s a power shift involved with that. So there’s that aspect of giving my power to another person. My mommy, who’s taking a nap at the moment for instance. So again, it gets back to that responsibility kind of thing, but it also I think just gets back, I like sometimes being told what to do and having somebody else’s decisions made for me. Made for me.

MAKO: Right. And it’s not even necessarily like in a mean-spirited way. One of the things that I really enjoy about age play is that it’s very comforting and loving and nurturing. I have a really high pain tolerance and I can take a lot of stuff. But when I’m little, I don’t need very much in the way of pain. I can do it, but I don’t have to. It’s really really nice to be told, “Now it’s your bedtime,” or, “Now it’s time for you to get a bath,” or, “We’re gonna have dinner, and here’s what you’re going to have.” A huge thing for me, probably the core fetish that I have that’s at the bottom of every other thing is the intense and extreme violation of my personal space boundaries. And this is something that comes from actual child-hood. Ya know the way that when you’re really a little kid and someone’s taking care of you, they’ll check to see whether you wet your pants or not in public, or in the living room in front of all your guests?

SPACEY: Right, or spit on their rag and wash your face. That’s because, that’s how ya do it.

MAKO: Right, and have this nurturing yet condescending way of talking down to you. Like, “Do we need to go upstairs and get you a spanking?”


MAKO: And it’s not like, “You’re an A-hole!” No, it’s still gentle and still loving, but it’s undeniable. That’s like, sex napalm for my heart and soul and gonads. It just makes me hot and comforted!

RAVEN: Yeah. I know what you mean.

SPACEY: So just like one of Brother’s real hot-buttons and ways into age play for him is the violation of personal space, for me, something I really identify with is the erotic humiliation. It can be a great vehicle for erotic humiliation, especially if I do for instance, some of the sissy play or that kind of thing. If I am… This sometimes involves less regression and more, “I’m the adult, but I’m gonna wear this frilly thing and be made to eat these strained beets!”

MAKO: (Laugh) Wear your masculine blue bow.

SPACEY: That’s right. So, I love erotic humiliation, the biggest problem with erotic humiliation is that once you’ve done it, it takes more.

RAVEN: Yeah. I know. But you still have those go-to triggers no matter what. Like, for me like I said earlier it’s the wrongness of it. The relationship is not supposed to sexual, and that in itself is like my sexual napalm, bonerificness.

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: And it’s like, any spin on it, as long as that’s there, there are any number of ways that you can go with that. It’s like every time I do one scene, I wanna do it eight more time sand then I wanna do 46 other things that are all slightly different.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Oh I’m so that way! And I wanna turn this question around on you a little bit, because it sounds like there’s something you like that’s something I like too.

RAVEN: Oooh.

MAKO: I really really really like it when the big that’s taking care of me takes advantage of me and like, teaches me things.

RAVEN: Oh yes! Oh yeah! I love that, I love… Oh. Like, “Daddy’s gonna put it in you now and it’s gonna hurt…???

MAKO: (Laugh) Hot!

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: “…Be a good girl, Daddy’s so proud of you.” Oh! I love…

SPACEY: So how many first times have you had?

RAVEN: So many! Like…??? At least.”

MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: And it’s… I love a huge penis, man. I gotta say.

MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: I love it. And it fits right into this because it’s…

MAKO: *gasping laugh*

SPACEY: No pun intended. (Laugh)

RAVEN: Oooh my God! Didn’t even know! (Laugh)

MAKO: (Laugh) that’s a quote.

RAVEN: But it hurts every time. It legitimately hurts. And that makes it even more real, and it’s always this violative thing no matter what, and I just love that! I’m sorry, I forget what you said because I just started talking about big cock and…

MAKO: Well you kind of answered the question really.

SPACEY: Indeed.

RAVEN: I just got all flushed, whew!

MAKO: Clearly we’re gonna have to hang out a bunch.


MAKO: We’re all flushed now, that’s funny! (Laugh)

RAVEN: Totally funny. Ok so, the next question… This is one that I… I told a bunch of people I was interviewing you guys and the same question kept coming up.

MAKO: Oh boy.

RAVEN: They said, A, “Are they into the diaper thing?” which obviously we know you are…

SPACEY: *gasps*

RAVEN: And B, “Do they shit and piss in the diapers?” And then we have a whole host of associated questions after that if the answer to that is yes.

SPACEY: I think I’ll start off…

MAKO: Go ahead, Brother.

SPACEY: Because I think Mako has more to give in that department.

MAKO: (Laugh) Thanks.

SPACEY: For me, I do use my diaper to pee. I like to do that freely, frankly when I haven’t been wearing a diaper for a long time and I’m wearing one it takes some effort to get there too. But, I do like to wear a diaper and pee. I do not like to poop in a diaper. I have tried it exactly twice, and it was so much effort to clean up that I was kind of personally I just couldn’t really take it, and was kind of disgusted by it. So that’s just not for me.

RAVEN: Yeah.

MAKO: Alright, hand me the football, I guess.


MAKO: Ok. So, when I first got started with all this… And yes, I do. And yes, I do that too…

RAVEN: Alright!

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Yeah. When I first got started, I was a pee-only man. I remember, it was funny… This was right at the end of a relationship that I’d had, where when I told my then fiancé about it, she, I mean literally fell apart, and we just BKKKKHH blew apart.

SPACEY: It’s a great story, you should hear it on an earlier podcast. (Laugh)

MAKO: Yeah it’s pretty funny. So I decided then and there that if I was gonna get into this, I was gonna jump in with both feet and really try everything. So, for about a month when I, except when I was at work, I was diapered all the time. And I made myself do, everything! And I really really enjoyed the peeing, and I really really didn’t enjoy the pooping. It was really awful! The cleanup was gross, and the smell was oogie. I mean, there was this moment right when you first that was kind of like, “Hey! Look what I’m doing!”

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: Followed almost immediately by…

RAVEN: “I’m poopin’ my pants, bitches!”

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Right, exactly. Followed almost immediately by, “Oooh no!”

RAVEN: Well then it’s like… I have vague recollections of being a child and having poop in my diaper and being like, “This is touching my butt! And this is not a feeling that I like.”

MAKO: Right. Well, see now that’s the thing. So, a couple of years go by, and I went to visit a friend of mine and spend a baby weekend with her in Chicago. She is really into, that if she’s taking care of you, you don’t get to use the potty. Zero. Zilch. Not at all. And as she explained it to me, not because poop’s a happy fun time for her, it’s not. But because, it ratchets up… Oh this is a horrible place to use the food metaphor but I’m gonna do it.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: It adds spice to the power exchange. Because… That’s as much food metaphor as we’re getting with this alright?

RAVEN: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Actually I have some for later but…

MAKO: Really? Gross.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: So, she made me do it. I remember, it was really funny. She got me all diapered up and we went to this pizza place, and she’s like, plying me with water, and for some reason the pizza we ordered had a lot of vegetables on it which… Now I understand why.

RAVEN: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Fiber and bulk, hmm.

MAKO: And then she kind of frog marched me all over downtown Chicago until things were gonna happen. And we get back and I tell her things are gonna happen and she’s like, “Well let’s go back to the hotel.” We get into the hotel lobby and we’re waiting for the elevator, and we’re on the elevator, a very small elevator, with this one other person. They were on the 7th floor and we’re like on the 11th floor or whatever it was. And we all hit the buttons, and we’re on about the 3rd floor when, PFFFTH! It happened.

RAVEN: Oooh (Laugh) the best story ever…

SPACEY: I love that it came with sound effects!

MAKO: Yeah, and I was so humiliated and it was so gross! I mean… It’s almost like, you know that thing when you’re a kid and you’re in assembly hall and someone farts on a metal chair and it’s like a clarion call, everyone can hear it?

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: It was like that only a hundred times louder, it was so terrible!


MAKO: And I turned like, beet red. And when it got to their floor I mean, BOOM! They were off that elevator like a shot!

RAVEN: They must’ve just thought it was like the world’s worst/greatest fart.

SMAKO: (Laugh)

MAKO: Right!

RAVEN: Because who thinks that you’re wearing a diaper and that you’re actually just going for it right there?

MAKO: Right. And I couldn’t even stop myself, it was so hideous! And then we get in there and she was very kind, very gentle and very nice to me about it and got me taken care of. And I can tell you that… I mean I’ve had my diaper changed thousands of times, literally, and that’s probably one of the 10 best times ever, because I wanted it so badly, and I was so grateful. And that was when it clicked for me and I started to understand that the power exchange was very sweet, and that was what she got out of it. Now that doesn’t mean I immediately became Mr. Poop in His Pants for the rest of my life.

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: I didn’t want to do it again. And I go through this boom and bust cycle with it where I…

RAVEN: Has! (Laugh)


MAKO: (Laugh) I guess that’s kind of funny! Where I’ll go six months, a year without doing, three months whatever it is, and suddenly I’ll be craving it, and then one of my mommies will make me do it. Then it’ll happen and they’ll change me and I’ll be like, “Ok I’m over it, can we not do that for a whole long time?” And it’s actually a way I get punished sometimes too, by being made to do it.

RAVEN: I think, one of the points you just made though is something that’s true for people in kink in general which is that they’ll say, “No I’m not into that,” and then they’re with somebody who they’re really attracted to, and that person will suggest something that hadn’t occurred to them or had previously been a turn-off, and then all of a sudden…

MAKO: It’s ok.

RAVEN: It works for them.

MAKO: Yeah.

RAVEN: So I’m done saying that I’m not into something, because I’ve done that and then I end up being into it.

SPACEY: So, I just want to share this additional tidbit. I’m not into pooping my pants. I have done some scenes where somebody’s put some food in my diaper to simulate the sensation of pooping my pants.

RAVEN: I was gonna ask you about that.

MAKO: It’s not a food metaphor, it’s actual food! (Laugh)

SPACEY: It was actual food yes. In this case I think breadcrumbs and peanut butter or something along those lines.

RAVEN: I heard that an injection of warm oatmeal…

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: …into your ass so that you can then expel it.

MAKO: Yeah, that’s Cargo’s invention, the calking gun.

RAVEN: Yeah.

SPACEY: Right. I definitely heard of that. The other thing I’ve heard people do is use bananas for I guess if they want something a little more solid.

MAKO: *Snort* Gross.

SPACEY: But you know the why people do it, it doesn’t smell. Or at least it doesn’t smell as bad, and the cleanup is a lot easier.

MAKO: Right. And it’s like an interesting sensation.

RAVEN: Yeah.

SPACEY: I suppose. (Laugh)

RAVEN: What percentage of ABDLs would you say are pooping their pants?

MAKO: Um, hold on, right now?

RAVEN: Right at this moment.

MAKO: Let me go to the central office and check the book.

RAVEN: In…???

SPACEY: (Laugh) (machine sound effect) Beep beep beep beep beep beep…

MAKO: I have no idea.

SPACEY: I can speak to my experience from talking to people and having that question asked around and give you my perception.

RAVEN: That, you’re perception is acceptable. Let us proceed.

MAKO: Accept, Brother. (Laugh)

SPACEY: I would say… Of the folks that I’ve talked to I would say that less than 20 percent, maybe even less than 10 percent are poopers, and the vast majority are peers.

MAKO: And half of that 20 percent will cop to it openly, because it’s frankly a mark of shame.

RAVEN: Hmm. But I mean, the way that you describe it doesn’t… It doesn’t seem like it should be. But that is of course the hot-button issue. Well, there are two. The first one is poop, the second one is the whole, “You’re sexualizing children, therefore there’s something related to pedophilia wit this.”

MAKO: I do wanna talk about both of those points one at a time. Let’s take the stinky one first.

SPACEY: The pedophilia?

MAKO: No, the poop.


MAKO: I just wanna wipe this question up and be done with it.


RAVEN: Wipe it up?

MAKO: Yeah. I think that why there’s that shame factor, it’s a combination of two things. And I’ve experienced this personally where like, my being little, I worry sometimes that it’s a burden to my friends and loved ones around me. That like, I want it so much, and that it’s not fun for them, it’s too much for them.

SPACEY: It doesn’t mean that it is, it means that he’s worried about it.

MAKO: Right, it’s a perception. And, sometimes it’s an unnecessary perception. So if you think about it like, well age play is tough. Right? But, diapering is tougher. Right? Well, what’s more tough than that? *claps hands together* Poop. Poop is the toughest thing. And you can be in public and have bad manners about it. People that are into pooping their diapers and do it on the checkout line at the grocery store? That’s just frickin rude!

RAVEN: I was gonna ask about that because you have this unwilling audience.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: That you’re subjecting to that. I heard a story of… It was like an overly public play story where this couple who, the girl was a little, she was into diapers. She went to get a tattoo, and she got a tramp stamp, and she wore a diaper very conspicuously so that the tattoo artist would have to be looking at it when she bent over to get the tramp stamp. And then went in the diaper. So, the whole thing was orchestrated around making this person have to be intimately involved with it. So I think you had a good point that…

SPACEY: Right, without agreement or…

RAVEN: Yeah exactly, consent.

MAKO: Oh, there’s a term for people like that. They’re called inconsiderate A-holes.


MAKO: So I think that that’s part of where the shame factor comes in. We don’t wanna be inconsiderate A-holes, we worry about being inconsiderate A-holes. There’s always that thing of… I think that… Not that I can speak for everybody, but I think a lot of age players are really grateful for the things that the people who indulge us and play with us and enjoy it with us give us and do with us. It’s really easy to see these things we do as being profoundly selfish, so I think there’s always that, “Well I want this. But is it too much?” How much is enough? So, that’s why…

SPACEY: I’ve heard that on every level of age play for that matter.

MAKO: Oh yeah.

RAVEN: I’ve heard that on every level of kink too though.

MAKO: Sure. For sure.

RAVEN: Like, somebody who’s a huge masochist who wants to get beaten senselessly to the point where it hurts the person doing it. Anything that you want, that you need, that really turns you on, because you’re so dependent on it you have that tendency to view it like, “Oh God, what if this person doesn’t wanna do it? What if it’s this burden?”

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: But I really believe that people are kink compatible and you just gotta find the right ones. And that’s when it’s really the best, when nobody’s compromising, nobody’s sacrificing, everybody’s getting what they want. So there are mommies out there who want to do that.

SPACEY: That’s interesting. I would agree that it’s magical when you find the right partner. I really feel like one of the most blessed people on Earth. I think I have one of the most amazing sets of partners on the planet actually.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: But, I would say one thing I get from having this amazing set of partners is some perspective on giving of myself because seeing them be happy makes me happy too.

MAKO: Right.


SPACEY: So it doesn’t necessarily mean I have to be 100 percent compatible with the thing that they’re interested in.

MAKO: It’s like that poly thing with compersion right? Or frubble? Frubble is the feeling of joy you have when your partner’s happy for a reason that has maybe nothing to do with you. Like, if my mommy goes and has a date with a friend and that goes really well, I’m happy for her. And for him. For them. And it makes me happy. By the same token, maybe I’m kind of tired and I don’t really wanna give our little girl a spanking, but she really needs the spanking, and it brings her joy, so I’ll do it anyway. And her happiness makes it good for me.

SPACEY: Right.

RAVEN: Yeah. I think too when your fetish is being fulfilled, you’re much more likely to feel those feelings.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: Of compersion and gratification. Because I think, it can be frustrating when you’re just not getting your own needs met. As good of a person as you are, as giving as you are it can just be like, “God damn! Change my diaper!”

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: I’ve certainly felt some (Laugh) level of frustration. I’ll certainly agree. I’m really blessed so at this point I can have that other attitude.

RAVEN: Yep. Now, we talked a little bit about some of the misconceptions and things having to do with age play, but I have a bunch. So I trolled Fetlife, all these different forums, read a bunch of questions, people kept saying the same things. They’re a pattern. So I took notes on these patterns. So the first thing…

SPACEY: Did you check with the Jerry Springer audience?

MAKO: Ugh.

RAVEN: Ugh. (Laugh)

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: They’re not real. I refuse to believe that that’s the real thing.

MAKO: Me too.

SPACEY: I hope not.

RAVEN: So, we talked about scat. Let’s just do the pedophilia thing and get it over with. Because we got…

MAKO: Roll your eyes, Brother, go ahead.

SPACEY: This is my cue to roll my eyes because we have to talk about this on so many shows.

RAVEN: I know.

SPACEY: And it’s like, “Ok. It’s not the most interesting topic in the world, but we have to talk about it.”

MAKO: …???

RAVEN: Well I think we all are in agreement that it’s not what everybody thinks it is. Because the only people who think that’s what it is are outside of this, they’re not kinky, they don’t understand, it’s sensationalist. We’re adults, we’re not minors, there’s nothing going on here.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: I don’t even see the overlap really. It’s just pretend.

SPACEY: I would say that the vast majority of people who feel like age play is a gateway to pedophilia have never seen age play.

MAKO: Right, or don’t know an age player.

SPACEY: Because once you’ve seen it, you’ve probably realized that, that guy who’s got 5:00 shadow and happens to be wearing a diaper is probably not actually a baby.

MAKO: Right.


MAKO: I think that where the logical break is here, and why it’s so problematic with age play as opposed to say like, medical fetish, is that we’ve all been children. We know what that looks like. We know what it feels like. And age play does play with the tropes of childhood. We are childish, we are child-like. I like a little red wagon, I like coloring books. I also like a woman’s hand down my pants kind of faux molesting me while she’s faux babysitting me.

RAVEN: Oh that’s kind of hot.

MAKO: It was kind of just for you.

RAVEN: (Laugh)

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Here’s the thing though. I’m a grownup. And liking child-like things in a sexual way is just another adult way of liking child-like things. Lots of adults like cartoons too, and people can go, “Well cartoons are just for children!” Well there’s nothing wrong with an adult watching a cartoon.

SPACEY: And you’ve seen some Hentai, it’s not just for children, that’s for sure.

MAKO: That’s exactly right.

RAVEN: Oh I love Hentai! Yes!

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: But the thing is, why people make this stupid little linkage that they shouldn’t, is because… Let’s compare it to say, medical play. If you’re in a dungeon and you’re watching someone get their labia pierced by someone in a surgical gown, the whole doctor’s kit, there’s no question in your mind that this is not a dungeon, you’re not in an operating room, it’s play.

SPACEY: Right. This guy must really wanna take out somebody’s liver.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: But I think that age play, because it taps elements that are familiar and perverts them it speaks to this visceral place where people throw away their sound judgment and go, “It must be this!” Which, it’s not.

RAVEN: Yeah. That’s a really good point.

SPACEY: We also had Gloria Brame, Dr. Gloria Brame on the show not too long ago.

MAKO: Episode 4.

SPACEY: She made a good point that a lot of this also comes from sort of our cultural hysteria around anything related to children.

RAVEN: Oh of course. Different Loving, good book.

SPACEY: It’s a fantastic book.

MAKO: One of the best.

RAVEN: Yeah, I actually have it over there in my apartment.

SPACEY: Awesome.

RAVEN: Now, I don’t think there’s really too much more to say about this. I think it’s roleplay, I think you made a good point that it’s familiar to everybody, children we’re all hysterical about so everybody thinks they have something to say about it.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: But, people are gonna judge, whatever, we’re havin’ good sex. Doesn’t matter.

SPACEY: Exactly.

RAVEN: Now, here’s another misconception. I hadn’t… Well let me start with the big one. “Diapers and age play are always linked.”

MAKO: Ha, no. No, no.

SPACEY: (Laugh) Indeed. In fact several of the ways I do age play do not involve diapers at all. I like diapers, diapers are a lot of fun for me, and in fact diapers in and of themselves can be an interesting turn-on for me. But, there are lots of other things that turn me on, and there are lots of other things I like to do that involve taking on a role of a different age that don’t involve me wearing diapers at all.

MAKO: Same here.

RAVEN: And, would you say that you encounter people often who are into just one or the other, or is it more common that they are linked in your experience?

SPACEY: Um… Oh, go ahead.

MAKO: Well Um…

RAVEN: It’s cute, they’re raising their hands. It’s like we’re in school.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: We’re very coordinated.

SPACEY: We have a little visual language for passing the buck around here.

MAKO: One of many ways that we have a private language.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: But anyway. It’s funny, I know people… Here I can even speak to one, because I can do anything I want with her. It’s my little girl Rachel. And she’s gonna hear this and blush again. Every time I say I can do anything I want to her, she always blushes. But it’s true because she told me so. When Rachel first came into my life, she was not a diaper-wearer at all. She was a little girl, an age player, a spanker, or into spanking rather, but she didn’t know if she could do the diapers. She has now been firmly, I don’t know what’s the word I’m looking for, marinated in the diaper brine.

RAVEN: Oh that’s an image!

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: She wears them all the time… Not diaper gravy.

RAVEN: Haa! (Laugh)

MAKO: Yeah we’ve all seen that movie.

SPACEY: That’s enough food metaphors.

MAKO: Yeah… Why does it keep going back to that poop?! Go away!


MAKO: So she was startled about it, hesitant to try it, but after she did, she realized that she liked it. It was like a hump to get over. And I find this true with a lot of people, I think they’re more scared of the idea of the thing than the thing itself. And by that same token, I know lots of age players, me being one of them, where… I used to be all diaper diaper diaper diaper diaper diaper diaper diaper diaper, all the time. And then I kind of got away from it. I still do it, I still enjoy it, but I’ll go months without wearing a diaper and still be little and still have a great old time. What’s really interesting to me is the way that my mommies sometimes will be like, “It’s been long enough that you’ve not been in a diaper, so now you’re gonna be.” It’s not just about the person wearing it, it’s also for the person doing it. And I’ve experienced that too. I like diapering people, it’s nice.

SPACEY: So, one of the things that Brother and I both do is we organize munches for age players. They’re called littles’ munches and you can go to to find out more about them.


SPACEY: There are plenty across the country and there’re more coming all the time. And one coming in Germany, pretty excited about that. But we call it Littles’ Munch and not ABDL Munch, Adult Baby Munch or that kind of thing because…

MAKO: Or Diaper Munch thank God. (Laugh)

RAVEN: Oh yeah (Laugh)

SPACEY: Because it’s about far more than adult diaper-wearing babies. It’s about age play, and age play is a huge, broad range of things. People who take on the big role for an age play scene? They’re age playing!

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: People who decide they wanna be a Catholic school girl? They’re age playing. People who decide they wanna be a little school kid and ride the bus, they’re age playing too. And most of those roles I just mentioned don’t wear diapers.

RAVEN: Actually the Catholic school girl things’ a good point. That is one of the most vanilla role-plays I guess, like it’s one of the most widely accepted. You see it everywhere. Every porn store sells the…???

MAKO: And it’s age play.

RAVEN: Exactly, that’s what it is. That’s probably the most non-taboo form of it, but that’s what it is. And I think a lot of people don’t even realize it.

MAKO: Some people are doing age play and not even copping to the fact that it really is.


SPACEY: And a lot of that I think goes back to that misconception that age play and diapers…

MAKO: Is wrong.

SPACEY: Or are the same thing.

RAVEN: Yeah, exactly. Another misconception I have here is perception of immaturity. Basically I have a quote from someone here that says, from Fetlife saying, “I don’t wanna deal with an adult who acts like a child, especially if he refuses to snap out of his baby state.” What are your thoughts on that?

SPACEY: On that question, we’re gonna leave you hangin’ a little bit here. We’re gonna actually push you off to hear the rest of this show to the Freedom of Fetish podcast. And so, Raven, why don’t you tell folks about how they can hear your show, and maybe get in touch with you.

RAVEN: Well Spacey, they can get in touch with me on They can also find the show on iTunes. And if you want to ask me a question for a future episode you can email me at, I’m also on Twitter as are you two, at Raven Lightholme and at Freedom of fetish. So if you wanna hear the juicy details, you’re gonna have to go over and listen to my show.

MAKO: Woohoo!

SPACEY: Oh and it’s really good too, you don’t wanna miss out.

RAVEN: It’s true. Aww, thanks guys.

MAKO: She’s the best.

SPACEY: So, if you’d like to get in contact with your podcasts hosts here, you can write to us…

MAKO: Oh, so many ways.

SPACEY: Indeed, at And hosts is H-O-S-T-S. You can go to our website and leave us a comment. The website is You can find us on Fetlife and find our group there, The Big Little Podcast. You can find us on Twitter, and that Twitter handle is because our Twitter handle is a bit too big little for Twitter.

MAKO: And, you can do our most favoritest thing ever and call the show line, which is 678-421-4256, but if you do, please be sure to let us know it’s ok to use it on the show.

RAVEN: Oh I forgot to say my own number. So, if you wanna call me, 860-756-0308. And by doing so you are agreeing that I will use it on the show. So I skip that, cuz I’m a lawyer, bitches!

SMAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Very good.

MAKO: That’s awesome.

SPACEY: So, now, stop listening to this one and get yourself over to Freedom of Fetish. And thanks for listening!

RAVEN: Or you will be punished!

MAKO: (Laugh)

Outtro music

Part 2

RAVEN: Freedom Of Fetish is a sexually oriented podcast intended for adults only. Please escort yourself out if you don’t think you can handle it.

Intro music

RAVEN: Welcome to Freedom of Fetish I’m Raven Lightholme, and I’ll handle your kinky queries. Nothing is too taboo.

RAVEN: Hey guys, welcome to Episode 31 of Freedom of Fetish. You may have noticed if you’re a regular listener that the intro music today was not as evil as it normally is. In fact, it’s pretty much the opposite of evil, and the reason why is because this is a special joint episode that I did with the boys over at the Big Little Podcast, which is a podcast dedicated to all things age play. They are adult babies, that’s what they are into. And the episode that you’re gonna hear today is actually part 2 of a 2-part interview that starts on their show. So if you want to hear the beginning, and all the details about poopy diapers and spankings and all the ridiculous things that you guys asked about, go over to, check out episode 15 for part 1 of 2. Also I urge you, if you haven’t already listened to, I Want Your Sex, the podcast by Mia Martina, definitely check it out and I urge you to check out episode #35 entitled Toy. No particular reason, but I may or may not have an intimate familiarity with what went on in that episode. So, that’s all I’m gonna say except, ahem, I have dark hair. So, you’ll know what I mean if you go over there and listen to it. Mia is great, she’s an awesome story-teller and writer and if you haven’t already checked that out you will fucking love it, I promise you. So, to those of you Freedom of Fetish listeners, go over to the Big Little Podcast to check out Part 1 of 2, and to those of you coming from the Big Little Podcast, hi, and thanks for checking me out. I had a great time talking with SPACEY and MAKO: about all things age play and you guys put some awesome awesome prying questions. So it was juicy, it was a juicy episode, I had a lot of fun with it. I learned a lot. I think you guys will too. I think age play’s very very misunderstood and there’s a lot that people don’t know about it. Some people don’t know what it is, some people don’t know all the varieties that are inherent in it, and it’s really a huge huge world. So I urge you to check out the Big Little Podcast in general, it’s a great show, and those guys are awesome. And if you wanna get in touch with me for suggestions, submitting questions of your own, just wanna hang out, whatever, you can do so by emailing me, You can also tweet me, I’m very very active on Twitter as those of you on Twitter are probably aware as I fill your home screen feeds with all my bullshit. I’m @Ravenlightholme on there, also @Freedomoffetish, the second one’s more for the show, the first one’s my personal one. I’m also on Formspring, I don’t know the URL, but you can find it on my website, And you can leave a voicemail for the show also by calling 860-756-0308. And on we go to Part 2 of my interview with Mako and Spacey of the Big Little Podcast.

Intro music

RAVEN: So I’m here with Mako and Spacey and this is Part 2 of our ABDL age play barrage of questions. So if for some reason you didn’t catch the first part of that episode you need to go over, is it

MAKO: It is.

SPACEY: You got it.

RAVEN: Alright. and it’s also on iTunes, you should go check that out for the beginning, because there’s lots of juiciness and poop-filled diapers…

SMAKO: (Laugh)

MAKO: Yeah, our podcast doesn’t stink, but we did talk about poop a bunch.

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Another misconception I have here is perception of immaturity. Basically I have a quote from someone here that says, from Fetlife saying, “I don’t wanna deal with an adult who acts like a child, especially if he refuses to snap out of his baby state.” What are your thoughts on that? This isn’t something I had even heard of before I started looking through Fetlife. It’s apparently somewhat widespread.

MAKO: *sigh* Ok. Yeah. You wanna go first, Brother? I got thoughts about this.

SPACEY: Go ahead.

MAKO: So, there’s this thing. And this is not easy to say, but it’s the truth. The age play community, for whatever the hell that is, does sometimes attract people who use it as a social convenience because they’re not well-socialized. They’re childish, they’re immature, they have poor manners, they don’t know how to act in public, ya know? And they figure, “Well here’s a bunch of people acting like kids. I can hang out with them.” And I can tell you like, through the munch and other events that I organize, I vet those people. When I see someone acting inappropriately, I pull them aside and I say, “Hey, listen man, cut that out. Act like a nice person. Stop touching that person. Stop getting in there space if they didn’t invite you. Don’t, crap your pants, at the munch.”

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: Unless you’re fecally incontinent in which case I’ll be sensitive about it. I mean, like I said, there’s a term for that kind of behavior. It’s called being an inconsiderate A-hole. And the sad thing is, I think that people again make that logical jump that if you’re acting child-like that you also have to act, that you also have to be childish, and that’s not necessarily true. And I think that… I mean I can’t speak for the whole community, but most folks that I know that are responsible age players, we kind of police ourselves to not do that.

SPACEY: I think another aspect to your question is that the kind of age play that we at least discuss on this show is about adult consensual age play. Now, what might not be consensual age play is somebody for instance who has a mental disorder where they can’t control the fact that they’re moving into this other state that may be a younger alter and can’t actually take themselves out of it. But, if that’s the case, then it’s not really consensual, and it’s really not what we’re talking to.

MAKO: Right. I mean there’s like, bratting too, but as a previous guest of ours pointed out, truly good gourmet bratting takes into account the fact that the other person you’re bratting to wants you to some degree.

SPACEY: Right.

MAKO: There’s this very fine line between being a brat and being a jerk, and part of it is whether you’re being considerate of the people you’re bratting to.

RAVEN: Mmhmm. I think you bring up a good point that a bad seed in any group can ruin it from the entire group, especially when so much of age play’s based on outside perception from people who have really no idea what’s going on. So if they see the loudest one, the most obnoxious one,

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: That’s the thing that gets their attention, that’s just how it works.


RAVEN: There’re people that, in any kink group… There are… I’ve heard of men for example who have, they are rapists. There’s no better way of saying it, and they go to go say that they’re Doms, and they take advantage of people who do not consent to that. And there’ve been huge blowouts because of that, because the kink community does police itself like you said.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: Because we’re all aware that everyone outside does not like us, so we have to watch ourselves.

MAKO: I can tell you, at events that I’ve posted I’ve had to watch out for and occasionally eject people who are kind of predatory. One of the things about age players, even though we’re not kids, is that often when you’re a regressing age player, it can put you in a headspace that’s very emotionally vulnerable, and people that don’t respect that and get in peoples’ face or touch them in a way they don’t wanna be touched, or interact them it a way that’s too familiar can be very jarring to age players.

SPACEY: Right.

MAKO: And more than once I’ve had to like, grab someone and frog march them out of my event, or have them pulled aside and given a stern talking-to because of that. It’s funny, I did wanna touch back on something you’d said earlier and tell a little story about that thing, the way that any fetish can be broadcast too loud. There was this guy… It’s the Tiny Penis Show, you know what I’m talking about Brother, right?


SPACEY: I love that!

MAKO: It’s actually pretty funny. This guy was really clever. This was years ago at the Playhouse in Baltimore which is a BDSM playspace dungeon, art gallery and source of awesomeness in Baltimore. We were having an age play party there, my ex and I, and it was comingled with a larger social gathering and just general kink event, and this guy showed up. He didn’t say a word to anybody. Then he went down into this other area of the playhouse and took off all of his clothing, and put on this contraption, this amazing contraption, it was like this metal harness that hung around his waist and had a giant fish-eye magnifying glass that would float in space above his penis to magnify it. And then he had this sign that he wore that said “The Tiny Penis Show.”

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: And his things were, obviously exhibitionism and voyeurism and being objectified and being humiliated. And the way that he made this ok, and this is really clever and funny is that he… He was not a person. He was a program. You couldn’t actually speak him and be like, “Hey, what is all this?” You’d go to talk to him and he’d say, “Next on The Tiny Penis Show, it’s the incredibly small penis! Sponsored by you!” And things like that.

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: And if you didn’t wanna watch you could walk away. And he didn’t care. It was funny… Go in a different direction. And because it was funny, people kind of dug it. But people were kind of skeezed by it, I mean, you couldn’t miss this guy! So you could just, go the other way. (Laugh)

RAVEN: Yeah.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: That’s the exact opposite of my one experience that I had at a fetish party in general. One New York City fetish party, there was an adult baby there, and I had been warned about this particular person before because he was the exact opposite where he would actively go up to people and do the hover. Like, the socially awkward hover. And he was… I should say too that he was physically scary because he was very old and he was like full-blown everything, ya know… And I think it’s a lot more jarring to see an old man in a baby outfit than it is to see like a middle-aged person, a young person. Maybe that’s, maybe I’m wrong for saying that but it was fucking scary. And he was coming up…


MAKO: There’s nothing wrong. There is no wrong.

RAVEN: I mean I just think that…

SPACEY: Yeah, there is no wrong, but obviously there are older adult babies too.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: Of course, but he was coming up and he would wait, wait, wait, ignore him, and then he would like tap your shoulder and then ask you to spank him.

MAKO: Right.


MAKO: Well that’s just creepy.

SPACEY: It starts getting inappropriate at that point, indeed.

MAKO: Ya know what I think? I think that when someone has things that could be in their physical appearance in their countenance that can be jarring, I think that what amps them up is inappropriate behavior. If he was sweet and charming and kind and nice, I think the fact that he was an older gentleman in full baby kit wouldn’t have mattered to you.

RAVEN: I think you’re right. I think it would’ve been endearing almost, but it was the creepiness. And I think… Oh God, I mean, that was just, that was not good. But then again it’s the same thing with foot fetishists for example. I love them and they love me and sometimes they’ll come up and it’s totally in the approach. It’s totally in the, if they’re conversationalists, if they’re funny, if they if they’re respectful of the fact that maybe you’re doing something else, then that’s great.

SPACEY: It’s about approaching somebody as a whole person and not approaching that person as an object of your fetish.

MAKO: Right. I was gonna say no one wants to be treated like an orgasm ATM.

RAVEN: Eh some people do. (Laugh)

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Well, yeah, but when it’s negotiated.

RAVEN: Never assume that, yeah.

MAKO: Right. Ya know, what’s that pickup line that is always, Dottie puts on shirts, “Nice shoes, wanna fuck?”

RAVEN: Yeah.

MAKO: No one likes that.

RAVEN: Well, you…???

SPACEY: Well some people do.

RAVEN: That brings up another question for me because you guys have to police events often, because you’re both involved in the scene and what you said before, you run munches. You’ve had to tap people on the shoulder, kick them out kind of regulate shit. How does that affect your own experiences? Can you safely regress? Do you enjoy yourself as much when you know that you’re gonna have to watch out for these douchebags?

SPACEY: I can certainly speak to that. I would say… Well, fortunately I’ve been really blessed. The events that we’ve had here in Atlanta, for the most part people are on the level, top-notch, they’re not acting appropriately. There have been… Or they are acting appropriately…

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Otherwise it’d be very uncomfortable…

RAVEN: (Laugh)

SPACEY: (( Um, occasionally we get some people that I need to pull aside and talk to and yes, I’m always sort of mentally policing what’s going on around as best I can. And no, typically when I’m organizing an event I don’t get to get down into the regressed state that I enjoy quite as much, especially if I’m at a play party and for instance, if the party’s at a private residence that happens to be my house, I’m going to be making sure that people are having a good time. Do they have a drink? I may be wearing a dress or a diaper or that kind of thing, I may get moments of it, get to play a game of cards, a game of Uno with somebody for instance or that kind of thing. And I get into that and I enjoy it, but yeah, typically I don’t get to reach that level of regression that I would at an event that I don’t organize.

MAKO: Yeah. It’s like that for me too. I’m very fortunate because with the munch up here in DC, I have some co-hosts. My mommies help me with it and our little boy Richard helps me with it. And Richard is an invaluable resource to me. He’s like a greeter for the munch. And he’s really good at ferreting out the new people and making them feel welcome. So there’s usually about, our munch usually goes about two or three hours or so. And there’s usually about this half-hour 40 minutes right in the middle of it that I get to drop and enjoy myself for a little bit. But I don’t count on it, and it doesn’t matter anyway, because our poly kinky leather family is big and healthy and wonderful, and I get a lot of that at home. So, when I organize an event, when I’m out some place in public, I’m kind of not there for me. I mean, partially I am, but I’m there because I wanna help people and I kind of love everybody and I want people to feel good and have in their lives what I have.

SPACEY: Right. I think we do it because our family has a mission.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: And watching that mission get fulfilled is very fulfilling for us.

MAKO: Yep.

RAVEN: That’s the perfect type of event organizer. The person who’s doing it selflessly because they care about it…

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: Not the person who’s trying to make money or trying to sell something, those never last.

MAKO: If you’re doing it for “Thank you,” you’re in it for the wrong reason.


MAKO: This makes me really wanna talk about the pin thing, Brother, in a little bit, the symbol and the whole thing.

SPACEY: Yeah go ahead, that’s fine.

MAKO: So, I’m one of the creators of the age play and baby pride symbol. Show notes I guess, SHOWNOTES.

SPACEY: Yeah, it’s at

MAKO: Yeah, you can actually see it in the logo for our podcast. And it’s based on the leather pride flag that Tony De Blaze made back in the 70s or 80s that was one of my references when I was making it.

SPACEY: It certainly recalls that flag I agree.

MAKO: And I can’t tell you that… I’ve gotten a lot of crap over the years about that I’m trying to like be the president of the adult babies and you know, stake my fortune on this thing. It’s just not the case.

SPACEY: Indeed.

MAKO: Many years ago I actually released this symbol, I don’t have a copyright on it anymore.

SPACEY: right, it’s public domain.

MAKO: And we do sell pins at that site, but at a great loss frankly.

SPACEY: We also link to other people who sell their own versions of it. We have a free art kit that we have put together that people can download and use however they like.

MAKO: That’s right.

SPACEY: It’s something we’ve made available that we do because it’s part of our mission.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: You can take it or leave it.

MAKO: And that’s another thing too, which is, if you don’t like the symbol, that’s fine. Then it doesn’t speak for you. Because I’m not the boss. There is no boss here.

RAVEN: Yes. Again, that’s the mindset that I think you have to have if you really care, that’s the only way you’re gonna make it.

MAKO: I’ve really wanted to get that off my chest for a while in a public venue. So ya know Raven, I really appreciate the opportunity to say it on whichever of our shows this one’s up on.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Because it’s not about me. I have no ego about this. It’s for all of you guys.

RAVEN: Yeah.

SPACEY: Or not. Take it or leave it.

RAVEN: No that’s true, I’m the same with my podcast. I don’t make any money from this. I have very little time as it is, but I always wanted a job where I could help people. And, I think unfortunately the vast majority of jobs that actually pay anything don’t have that life-fulfilling element in them and so I think often times you just have to come to grips with the fact that your job’s going to pay the bills, and then you can have a hobby that fulfills you.

MAKO: That’s kind of how Brother and I got started with this.

SPACEY: Absolutely.

RAVEN: And it’s really satisfying, if that’s all you can hope for then you’re constantly satisfied by it.

MAKO: Yeah.

RAVEN: So, on that happy note, moving forward. This isn’t a misconception. So we’re moving from misconceptions to questions. But this is more of a statement from somebody that I took…??? Fetlife.


RAVEN: And I have a solid opinion on this but I wanna hear what you have to say first.

SPACEY: Oh my.

RAVEN: She says, “I’m a real-life mom. When I go to a dungeon party, I go there to feel like a sexy bitch in a corset and heels and leather. And then I encounter somebody in littlespace and I get thrown into momspace, and I’m thinking about my kids, which is a serious buzkill at a dungeon party.” So, do you ever… I mean, what do you think about that? Personally like, I think if you see an adult, it doesn’t throw you out of babyspace. So, I feel like this is kind of a needless complaint.

SPACEY: Well indeed, I can imagine for instance somebody who’s a nurse that doesn’t wanna think about blood and that kind of thing coming across a medical scene. “Oh my gosh that just totally throws me into my work headspace, I don’t wanna see that stuff!”

RAVEN: Yeah, or a lawyer seeing a power-suit fetish, like an ultra formal fetish.

SPACEY: That’s right.

MAKO: An ex of mine…

SPACEY: Go to another place.

MAKO: Yeah. An ex of mine had this great expression about fetishes that were not hers. She’d say, “Hey, boat, ride it baby, just ride it over that way.” I think that there is a two-part plan that she can employ to deal with this problem of hers. Here’s the first part, suck it up. Here’s the second part, deal with it.

RAVEN: Right.

MAKO: Everyone is responsible for their own feelings. Yeah, there’s the thing about, things have to be consensual, which is why you don’t go up to people and ask them to be your mommy. But within the confines of a public playspace, you all kind of agree to coexist for a little while. So what I would say is, it’s fine that she’s not turned on by it, it’s fine that she doesn’t wanna see it. Go the other way. Go elsewhere in the dungeon. Own your feelings and be the grownup you are and let us own our feelings and be the cute, padded or otherwise grownups that we are.

RAVEN: Yep. Well said.

MAKO: Thank you.

RAVEN: The second question I have here having to do with being a real-life parent is something that I myself worry about.

MAKO: A little freaked out about?

RAVEN: Very freaked out, yeah. I know somebody, one of my friends who is female and she is a little. And she’s about, she goes to like eight years old I would say. She just determined that she is pregnant, and this was not planned but she’s going to have the baby. And she’s just horrified that she’s daddy’s little girl, and all of a sudden her body’s gonna be changing.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: And she’s really not gonna be Daddy’s little girl anymore, there’s gonna be an actual one. She feels weirdly like she might almost be competing with her child for these kinds of affections and that her body’s not going to be what she considers ideal for regression. Because she doesn’t wanna look down and see these huge tits and this huge stomach and, it’s gonna make it more difficult for her to go into that headspace. So, I have that fear too also because I’m sort of a tomboy. I’m femme but I am a tomboy and I like to lift and do boy things like play videogames and take risks and do ridiculous crap and I just feel like it would just ruin everything! And I wanna have kids someday, but it’s gonna destroy my sexuality I’m afraid.

SPACEY: So, I can’t speak to that directly as I don’t have children right now either, and I know my Brother doesn’t at the moment either, although he has been an adoptive parent for a while and had some experiences with that. But parenthood, the kinds of things you’re talking about, the fear of loss of identity, parenthood isn’t the only kind of thing that can cause that. People have been dealing with issues of loss of identity from time immemorial. Another version I can think of, this kind of body dysphoria that she’s worrying about would happen with transgender folks that I know. They identify as a female, but their body tells them they’re something else. It’s not easy. It’s a pain in the butt, but they learn to cope. And best I can tell your friend is that you’ll probably learn to cope and you should be in the moment appreciate who you are, where you are, and if that’s a little different than where you were before, that’s ok.

MAKO: Yeah. I wanna talk to this too, and I’m going to lay down a little Taoism as I do from time to time, because I’m a Taoist. The things you were just saying, Raven, the concerns you have, the concerns that your friend has are a form of what’s called striving, which is, you’re concerned for how things might be. I’m going to give your listeners and our listeners a very important skill right now. I’m going to ask you the two most important questions in the universe.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Are you ready? I’ll ask you them.

RAVEN: This is epic.

MAKO: Yeah this is pretty big, like giant thunder peals. Ok. And I’m gonna ask both questions, and then you can answer them together. The first question is, where are you? And the second question is, what time is it?

RAVEN: You want me to answer this right now?

MAKO: Yes I do.

RAVEN: At my desk…

MAKO: You kind of just did actually.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: (Laugh) at my desk and it’s 8:22 PM on a Tuesday.

MAKO: Well that’s one answer.

SPACEY: It’s not true any longer.

MAKO: Right. It was. The answer that was true, and still is true, and will be true a few minutes from now, and seven years from now, and after you have a big giant pregnant belly if you ever do, is that you’re here. And it’s now. And whatever happened in the past is already gone, and whatever might happen in the future is an illusion because by the time it gets here, it’ll be the present. By the time you’re worried about it, it’ll already be gone. Now is all that matters. I can tell you that I had to deal with that kind of identity-loss issue. My ex and I when we were raising our son, my step-son, we had to fiddle around and do things differently. Was it different? Yeah it was. Was it bad? No it wasn’t bad, it was great. Was it great for the same reasons that my life is great now? No, it was great for different reasons. And that’s the truth. The truth is that at any moment in time, your life can be as great as you would like it to be if you embrace it fully. Worry about anything is just worry, it’s groundless, it’s needless. You don’t need to do it.

RAVEN: I think also a benefit is that this isn’t real life. She’s not really a little girl. This whole thing is roleplay.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: So, although it might take a little bit more suspension of disbelief to get into that role when physically you don’t feel the way that you want to, you still have the power to do it, because it’s ultimately all in your head anyway.

MAKO: Absolutely.

SPACEY: And I’m not denigrating the question at all because frankly I’ve had the same fears as I’ve considered what it’d be like to have children in my life. And a couple of times have worked in that direction. Frankly I’ve been fearful of that change. If it happens, I think it’ll still be wonderful for its own completely separate reasons.

MAKO: I could tell you that my ex and I, we looked for all kinds of ways for me to punish me that were quiet. So we could do them in the bedroom with the door licked at night at 10:00 when he was in bed. And I know a couple that are actually really great and horrible and silent. (Laugh)

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Well, ok. So, that was a heavy question, so now I wanna go to a ridiculously stupid question.

MAKO: Sure.

RAVEN: Which is, “Which rugrat would you be, and why?”

SMAKO: (Laugh)

MAKO: Wow.

SPACEY: Oh goodness. Well frankly I’ve only watched Rugrats a few times and there’s only a couple that I know off the top of my head.

RAVEN: There’s really not that many. There’s Chuckie Finster.

SPACEY: There’s Tommy Pickles.

MAKO: Right, Tommy Pickles.

RAVEN: Who’s like the nervous, shy backup friend, and then Tommy Pickles is the leader, keeps a screwdriver in his diaper so he can open the latch on the crib. And there’s Phil and Lil who are essentially a non-issue. (Laugh)

MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Then Angelica’s a bitch.

MAKO: (Laugh)


MAKO: Well and there’s some new ones too. There’s Kimi, Chuckie’s new step-sister.

RAVEN: Oh right.

MAKO: Who’s bold and adventurous and mispronounces things a lot. And who has…

RAVEN: That’d be you. (Laugh)

MAKO: Yeah. And she’s from Japan, and I have a big interest in Asian culture in general. So I’d probably be a combination of Kimi and maybe Phil for a bunch of different reasons. A, I consider Brother and Sister and I to be three parts of the same person, so the twin thing works for me.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Phil and Lil are both really sensory, they like mud and bugs and smells…

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: And I like stuff like that. And I got all that punny weirdness that Kimi does so, all of those people.

SPACEY: Right. And since I only really knew the two I’m gonna go for a more visceral base answer. My little girl side’s named Angelica so, she may be a bitch but I’m goin’ with Angelica.

RAVEN: Ya know what, I’m going with Angelica too.

MAKO: I’m gonna tell you a secret about her actually.

RAVEN: What? She’s a Dom?

MAKO: Well, no. This is a very poorly-kept secret. I’ve just never said it in media before. The people that write the Rugrats, some of them are adult babies.

RAVEN: Really?

MAKO: Yes.

RAVEN: Whoa!

MAKO: I knew someone who wrote many of the scripts, and they shared with me a truth about Angelica, which is one of the reasons why Angelica’s so fussy and so mean to the babies is because she still wears pull-ups and diapers. And if you look at the animation closely, you can tell.

RAVEN: Oh my goodness. That was such a good Easter egg piece of trivia there. (Laugh) Nice.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Worst-kept secret ever!

RAVEN: Let’s see, where now? Oh, this is a big thing. There are two questions here but I just combined them into one, and it’s essentially the issue… Is it sexual for you? Is it psychological for you? Would you go from being soothed and comforted in your diaper and happy that Mommy and Daddy’s about to change you to suddenly being turned on and sexually aroused when they’re cleaning you up or… Basically, is it always sexual, and if not, when does the transition happen?

SPACEY: Another thing we talk about a lot on this show actually.

MAKO: Yeah.

RAVEN: Because I know there are those who are non-sexual about it, and then there are those who are, and just like in the general BDSM scene there are people who are just into whipping and that’s it. Then there are people who are like, “At the end of the day, if I’m not fucking, that’s not something I would want to be a part of.”

SPACEY: So, I would say Brother and I consider ourselves to be sexually integrated age players.

MAKO: Yep.

SPACEY: Now, that doesn’t mean that every time we talk about age play or go into regression mode or that kind of thing, that it’s all about getting off. It’s not, diapers come off and the cum comes out or that kind of thing. MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: Sometimes. But honestly, mostly no.

SPACEY: Like anything it’s a continuum. There are times when it’s absolutely about the sensation, about being here and now, about just enjoying the loss of control, and not having to worry about things. And then there’re times where that diaper change gets fun…

MAKO: Bow chicka wow-wow! (Laugh)

SPACEY: Then a little more fun and then, hey! We’re gonna have a good time here!


MAKO: And it’s a loose, sloppy line. I mean, there are many times that I’ll be in mid-cuddle and cuddle becomes grope. They’ll be many times I’m in mid-grope and grope becomes cuddle. It just flows. And I wanna kind of put this out there for folks too. What the hell is sex anyway? Is intercourse sex? Is oral sex sex? Is spanking sex? Is getting a diaper put on you sex? I think that any of those things can be sexual or non-sexual to a degree. I’ve done a lot of reading about the way that people use masturbation. And a lot of times masturbation is a source of emotional release of tension. And I can tell you that’s definitely true for me. I’ll have days where I’ll like, wake up late and know I’m gonna be late for work, and I’ve got some bad stuff I gotta do at work that day, and for whatever reason it is, if I happen to sit at my computer and type “Spanking” into Google, I’m gonna be another half-hour late because I just get fixated on it because it relieves my tension. And then I’ll wind up in the shower and then I’ll be masturbating because I’m stressed.

RAVEN: Yeah.

MAKO: And is that about getting off? No, it’s really about catharsis and release. But isn’t masturbation always sexual? Maybe not. So, why does this have to be?

RAVEN: Yeah. Well, do you think that people tend to assume one way or the other with age players or with ABDLs. Like, if you’re at a munch for example, you don’t know anybody. Would you assume that these people are gonna end up having some form of sex or looking for some kind of sexual activity, or would you assume that it’s probably just about coloring and teddy bears?

MAKO: I’m the wrong person to ask.

RAVEN: Yeah.

MAKO: Because I don’t make assumptions about anybody or about anything.

SPACEY: I would say I just engage with people on the level they’re at when I see them.

MAKO: Right. After all, where are you and what time is it?

RAVEN: Yeah. Well that’s how it is with I think everything kink. Somebody’ll say that they’re a Dom but when you actually delve into it that’s not what that means at all…

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: Labels are helpful but they never take care of every detail of every person.

MAKO: You know what I think is the probably oldest fetish in the world? Arguing about what labels mean.

RAVEN: Yeah. (Laugh) Oh my God definitely.

MAKO: “Are you a Dom or a Top? Or a Master?”

SPACEY: So one thing that I really believe about these labels, I call them terms of identity. And one thing that I’ve heard them referenced that way. One thing I really believe about these terms of identity is, all of them are just a placeholder for a conversation.

MAKO: Yay!

RAVEN: Yeah. Well said. Let’s see. Oh I know the answer to this question because I’ve listened to your show and I know this anyway but, I think a lot of people don’t realize that this goes on. So, is it always big/little, or can it ba baby/baby and you’re just sitting around goo-gooing together?

SMAKO: (Laugh)

MAKO: I love being with other littles!

SPACEY: Yeah absolutely. I’ve done plenty of really fun things with a whole bunch of other age players and no bigs in sight. We’ve had a great time. Some people, like our sister sometimes or my mommy or some of our other family take on a role that they call middle, where they’re sort of at the older end of the age play spectrum away…

MAKO: Of being little.

SPACEY: From being an adult baby, right. And they some of them like to take care of, or do other mean, nasty things to the other age players.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: There’s taken care of, and then there’s “Take care of.”

SPACEY: (hand clap) “Take care of!”

RAVEN: (Laugh) Yeah.

MAKO: “I’m gonna take Mako in the other room and ‘take care of’ him.” (Laugh)


SPACEY: So yeah, it totally varies. I will also say that I’ve been with a group of littles and we have totally “taken care of” some big that happened to be around…

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: That was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

MAKO: It’s true. We go to Camp Crucible, and actually the littles at camp, we have a reputation for kind of being a scary mob.

RAVEN: Ya know there’s a Monty Python skit of those adult babies who are a mob. Have you seen that?


SPACEY: I haven’t!

MAKO: I’ll have to go looking for that!

RAVEN: Oh my goodness! A reference to ABDL that you haven’t seen!

SPACEY: *gasps*

RAVEN: Well you gotta go see it, it’s in And Now For Something Completely Different, they’re talking about how there’s a gang of savage adult babies who go and steal and like, they wreak havoc on London.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: I’ve seen that movie, I can’t believe that didn’t jump out at me!

RAVEN: Yeah. And Now For Something Completely Different!

SPACEY: The best thing I remember from that is the funniest joke in the world.

RAVEN: Yeah, everyone dies.

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Can’t…??? about dying. There’s the fish-slapping dance and all that, yeah.

MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: So, it’s hard to even segue from that. We have three left.

MAKO: Oh ok.

RAVEN: This one asks…

SPACEY: (sings) three is the magic number…

RAVEN: “Do you just buy adult diapers like Depends? How expensive is it? Where do you get your stuff?”

MAKO: Wow.

RAVEN: Where do you get your stuff?

MAKO: That’s kind of a big question.

SPACEY: Well it is and it isn’t. I mean, frankly it’s another one of those things that could totally be a spectrum. If you just wanna engage in a little adult baby diaper play, and you don’t really want to have the stuff around, and it’s just time for you to play with it for a little while, put it away, you’re probably going to the grocery store and picking up the Depends.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: If you’re gonna enjoy it for as much fun as it is for what it’s worth. And then you’re gonna be done with ‘em.

MAKO: They do suck.

SPACEY: Yeah, but they don’t absorb as well.

RAVEN: So do you get a more absorbent, I don’t know, I’m trying to think like, where do you get them? Are they made specially?

SPACEY: So anything that people are interested in have many levels of opportunities available and diapers are certainly no exception. There are other levels of say, institutional diapers. There are sort mass-manufactured adult incontinence products.

MAKO: For people that really do need them for medical reasons.

SPACEY: Right, and they’re mass-manufactured and they come from all over the world, and adult babies tend to rate and compare these things against each other. And there’s sort of a set that are considered the most common, right, the Dry247 is a brand that’s popular.

MAKO: Right, Molicare.

SPACEY: The Abena X Pluses, and Molicare, exactly. And we’re probably mentioning there’s a half-dozen others that we haven’t mentioned that people are like, “Hey that’s my favorite! I can’t believe you didn’t mention it!”

MAKO: Right, Tranquility, Tena Eurobrief, Secure Plus. There are actually disposable adult diapers that are designed for adult babies by adult babies. There’s this one particular company called Bambino that makes the diapers that I wear. And I really love those diapers. They’re adorable.

SPACEY: Oh yeah they’re pretty pretty diapers.

MAKO: Yeah. They’re pricy though. Gosh…

RAVEN: Like how much?

MAKO: Ok hold on, I’ll check. Um… I’m gonna go, check, my diapers.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: So literally have no clue.

SPACEY: I would say when I purchase my favorite to wear are the Abena X Pluses and why I like that brand of diaper is because it’s very thick, and the sensations are very important to me and that thickness is part of it. So, I get a case of those which is like three bags of… I don’t know exactly how many. I wanna say like, 12 to 15 diapers in a bag. And I will pay probably between 30 and 40 dollars for a case.


MAKO: Yeah ok, I’m looking right now at the Bambino site, which by the way also sells Abenas and Molicares now too. Which is a big surprise to me. The Bambino teddy bear diapers, let’s just talk about like say a case of them. A case of large diapers which is, that’s 40 diapers is 76 bucks. A case of medium diapers is 67 bucks. Two bags of eight diapers, 29 bucks medium, 32.76 large.

RAVEN: I mean it could get expensive if you’re wearing them all the time, every day, doing all your business in them, but it doesn’t seem prohibitively expensive compared to like, the number of whips that I have.

SMAKO: (Laugh)

MAKO: It’s a funny thing. Some people wear cloth diapers because they’re more economical, or they just like the feel of them better.

SPACEY: And they’re better for the earth.

MAKO: It’s true. And the thing about… I can’t speak for everybody, I can just speak for myself. I kind of rank my diapers as sort of a necessary luxury. When I have at times in my life where I’ve been strapped, not the fun kind, I mean financially strapped, diapers are one of the first things to go for me. And I don’t need them to do my age play, they’re not necessary. They’re better, it’s nicer, it’s more fun. Or I can regulate how often I use them. Instead of four a week or eight a week or whatever a week, one or two a week.

SPACEY: I can remember long before I ever bought my first diaper when I was a teenager living at my parents’ house and having these desires...

MAKO: I know what you’re saying.

SPACEY: I took a ton of toilet paper and wrapped it around my mid-section and cut some holes in a plastic bag. And that was my diaper.

MAKO: Tada! Right.

RAVEN: You MacGyver!

MAKO: McDiaper!

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: So this, and you can certainly… If you’re budgeting you can go with the cheaper diaper. And there’s so many places to get them. If you’re ashamed to buy them and you don’t wanna buy them from one of these boutique sites, you can get adult diapers from Amazon.

RAVEN: What about all your crazy frilly fun things like bloomers and teddy bears on them, ya know. Frills. Like I’ve seen both of your pictures on Fetlife and particularly Spacey has some where he’s Angelica.

MAKO: Rockin a big… Yeah.

RAVEN: And those can be really ornate. So do you have those made? Or do you buy them somewhere like that?

SPACEY: So, some of them were custom made. Actually none of the items I have are custom made for me. Often I will have items that I’ve found from other people that I bought from them because I’m like, “Oh it’s so cute I like that! Can I have it?”

RAVEN: (Laugh)

SPACEY: The other place that I get some of those really cute dresses and that kind of thing is through sites that sell stuff for Gothic Lolita fashion. So, one of the items that you probably saw on my Fetlife profile was me with the Easter Bunny in this black dress with kind of ice cream cones all over it. That one I got from a Lolita fashion… Well, really Lolita people think that this place is sort of the cheap crap of Lolita, but for age players who just wanna wear cute frilly things who cares? It’s called Body Line, and it’s really inexpensive Lolita fashion. I love it, that’s one place I get it. So not everything necessarily comes from something that considers themselves age play specific. In fact, unfortunately a lot of Lolita people don’t consider what they do age play which just freaks me out a little bit. But anyway.

RAVEN: Yeah.

MAKO: I get stuff from all kinds of places. I have onesies that I got from handicapped adaptive clothing places. There’s a site called Very Special Clothes.

SPACEY: Very Special Clothes.

MAKO: That is very not ABDL aware, so don’t go getting your freak on when you call them, cuz you will wig them the hell out.

RAVEN: (Laugh)

MAKO: Thrift stores are my friend. Amusement parks are my friend. You go to the boardwalk and you can have them put the iron-on transfer for a baby T-shirt on an adult-sized T-shirt. I do that a lot actually.

SPACEY: Ya know Target is a great place to go shopping.

MAKO: Yeah!

SPACEY: When the weather turns cooler in the fall, that’s when they bring out the sleepers. You typically have to go to the ladies section to get them, but so what?

MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: …???

MAKO: I buy a lot of stuff in the women’s section.

RAVEN: Yeah. I think the same is true for… Like, I was buying a riding crop for example. If you go to a kink store to buy a riding crop it is absurdly expensive, but if you go to a horse/equestrian store it’s not. Same with rope, if you go to Home Depot, and obviously you can’t get crazy types of rope that rope-snobs would want necessarily at Home Depot, but if you’re just fuckin around with it you don’t have to go bankrupt.

MAKO: It’s funny. Brother and I have had this joke for years. We’ll be in a store and we’ll see an item that there are two of on the shelf and they’ll be priced differently, “Well we have to get the more expensive one because clearly that’s better!”

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: I think that when you’re selling to a defined audience they’re getting charged like, a perv tax.

RAVEN: Oh of course, yeah.

MAKO: It’s unnecessary.

RAVEN: Well you just have to be creative and the internet is just awesome for everything.

MAKO: Oh sure. And I’m happy to pay perv tax on something that’s unique or I really like the vender… Oh, I have a good example of that. Brother and Sister and I, and a few other people have these amazing blankets that have the pride symbol on them. This woman, Nancy that has these business called Lifestyle Sewing, she made them for us. I’m not gonna say they were the cheapest things in the world, but they’re amazingly durable and beautiful, and very meaningful to all of us. There’s a picture actually in the Baby Pride Store gallery of my blanket. And I love that thing. I’d be happy to pay that over and over again because the work was worthwhile.

SPACEY: Indeed.

RAVEN: I have a tentacle dildo that…

MAKO: Cool!

RAVEN: I paid way too much for, but it’s a tentacle!

SPACEY: There ya go.

MAKO: (Laugh) Oh my God you were tentacle-raped!

SPACEY: Hooray!

RAVEN: Yeah totally, I love that… Ooooh goodness!

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: You need to buy several more of them.

RAVEN: I know, so that you can have that whole thing that always happens where they’re wrapped up and then they’re clothes explode!

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: That’s how that happens. There’s no awkward clothing removal, they just shatter into a million pieces!

MAKO: Ya know what Raven, some time you know what I’d like to do? I’d like to shout random high-pitched Japanese words at you while I throw it at you.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Oh, we could do a scene entirely based on that.

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: And I would start off hating it and be like, “Oh no ye nono…”

MAKO: *gasping laugh*

RAVEN: And then at the end I’d be like, “Oh! *gasp* MORE!”

MAKO: We could get the Tiny Penis guy to do subtitles for us! Like, walking around…

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: Yeah, I love that guy. I haven’t even met him and I love him. Totally would not do him though.

MAKO: Yeah, no.

RAVEN: I need the big guy.

SPACEY: Well he’d be really hard to do.

RAVEN: Yeah, he needed a (Laugh) magnifying glass! Of course, you’d have to do it on national television.

MAKO: That’s right. Yeah I’ve only ever seen the one episode, I’ve never… There’s no DVD of him, I haven’t seen any other seasons so…


RAVEN: Well, speaking of TV. This is the last questions before I’m gonna ask you guys resources you’d recommend to people.


RAVEN: They asked, what your thoughts are on ABDL in the media. So they said, “I know that TV shows like CSI have done a few episodes involving it.” Can you think of some examples yourselves that you’ve seen in addition to Monty Python like I just told you?

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: And do you think it has been handled with respect and dignity…

SMAKO: *gasping laugh*

RAVEN: Or do you think it was done for shock value, comedic purposes or ratings?

SPACEY: So the reason why Brother and I are cracking up, is because we just recorded, in the can, an episode about age play in the media, which will be I guess, episode, what, 13? Woo, scary.

MAKO: I think so. So, that’s our resource.

MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: #1, refer to Big Little Podcast for that episode.

MAKO: Yeah. In that show we talk about a number of appearances of age play in the media, how it’s been covered, in some good ways in some not-so-good ways.

SPACEY: Indeed, and we even had a guest who was on Secret Lives of Women, Baby Ella, to talk about her experiences of being recorded and having that shown on national television.

RAVEN: Wow, gonna be a good episode. Nice. So, in addition to your own podcast, which I would definitely definitely recommend to anybody who’s interested in ABDL age play or kink in general…


RAVEN: What other resources would you recommend?MAKO: Oh there are tons. There’re tons and tons. First off, Lee Harrington. Lee Harrington wrote this amazing book.

SPACEY: The Toybag Guide to Age Play

MAKO: It’s great

SPACEY: I love hat book.

MAKO: And he is a regular contributor to the Erotic Awakenings podcast, Dan and Don’s podcast. Once a month I think. That’s a wonderful resource right there.

SPACEY: We recently did a review of a fairly new resource if you’re focused on the adult baby side of things in particular called The Age Play and Diaper Fetish Handbook by Pampered Penny.

MAKO: Penny Barber.

SPACEY: Penny Barber that’s right.

RAVEN: Oh I was looking her up last night before doing this. I was doing some homework. She’s hot!

MAKO: Oh oh and, let me say this, I have to put a disclaimer on this. Ok. So, I have a column that I write for Fearless Press called The Tao of Kink. It’s all about Taoism and kink and there’s age play in there. The reason I bring it up is that the person that owns that site, my boss, Princess Kali, also owns And Kink Academy just got together with Penny Barber and they’re about to launch a whole series of instructional videos about age play.

SPACEY: And adult babies in particular.

RAVEN: Oh you know what? I recorded one for Kink Academy at Momentumcon!

MAKO: Did you!? I didn’t know that!

RAVEN: Yeah that was sort of like, I was really hungover

SMAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: And Savannah Sly was like, “ You wanna talk about Daddy/daughter stuff?” and I’m like, “Yeah let’s just do it,” and we’re like on the bed riffing.

MAKO: So cool.

RAVEN: Savannah and I share the same fetish, so we have fun let’s just say. (Laugh) So yeah can you guys think of…

SPACEY: Some resources…

RAVEN: Yeah, anymore resources you wanna recommend? Kink Academy’s a great one, Fetlife…

SPACEY: Yeah we’re gonna give a shoutout, Fetlife is probably…

MAKO: Fantastic.

SPACEY: The single most important resources for kink in this day and age at the moment.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: It’s a little scary how much it’s the single resource but, if you’re not on Fetlife you’re missing a lot of important conversation right now. It’s just the way it is. And we are on Fetlife. We have a group called The Big Little Podcast there. But I want to sort of talk up another one of our projects that is particularly important to me. We sort of mentioned earlier in this show we have a website called that talks about the munches for age players that happen across the country. And I think…

MAKO: And the world now.

SPACEY: Indeed. I think that’s a hugely important resources because it’s great to read all the stuff about it, it’s great to talk about it online with all these anonymous people, but ultimately…

MAKO: Do it.

SPACEY: It’s about living it. And to live it, you need to talk to people who are living it and connect with them.

MAKO: It’s the difference between looking at a really gorgeous picture of chocolate cake and eating that damn cake.

RAVEN: Mmmmmmmmm, caaaaaaaake. Mmm yeah.

MAKO: (Laugh)

RAVEN: I absolutely agree. It’s so, especially if you have a fetish that isn’t… I mean no fetish is the norm, but especially if you have a fetish that you’re afraid of talking about or that you think is generally frowned upon. It is so great to get with people who get it.

MAKO: Right.

RAVEN: And just be yourself and relax for once. It’s great.

MAKO: Exactly. Ya know I joke around a lot when I hang out at a scene club or go to a party or I’m at the munch and there’s this thing I say all the time to other age players and kink people in general. I say, “It’s so nice and relaxing to just hang out with some fucking NORMAL people for a change!”

RAVEN: Yeah (Laugh)

SPACEY: And that’s how it feels.

RAVEN: I know exactly what you mean.

MAKO: It’s the best feeling ever. There’s an event that I’ve gone to for like six years now called Camp Crucible. That’s like a summer camp for kinky people. It’s amazing! And part of why I go, part of what makes Camp soooooo flippin great, is that it’s all about tolerance. Age players go there, pony players go there, regular normal, if that’s the word, kinky people go there.

SPACEY: (Laugh) Vanilla kinky people.

MAKO: Right. People that are into everything. Sissies go, all kinds of people. You walk around and… I walk around dressed little all day long and people see me like the little I wanna be seen as. And I’ll see a pony and be like, “Hey pony!” And they’ll be like, “*horse’s neigh*!” And we’ll like, pet the ponies.

RAVEN: Oh my God I wanna go that’s awesome!

SPACEY: It is an amazing experience, I’m really gonna miss it this year!

MAKO: It’s coming up,

RAVEN: Question though. Is there enough electricity so I can have a hairdryer?

MAKO: Yes.

RAVEN: Ok good.

SPACEY: They have cabins.

MAKO: There are cabins, it is lazy…

RAVEN: Ok, so I’m not that good at roughing it.

MAKO: It’s not roughing it, so…RAVEN: My backpack in Europe was a rolling bag filled with sequins.

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: It’s not roughing it but there isn’t air conditioning.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: Except in the dining hall.

RAVEN: Oooh. I’ll just have a slave cover me in ice. (Laugh)

MAKO: People bring coolers of ice and fans and electric blankets, because it can get cold at night too. And it’s fine. It’s great actually. I love Camp with a passion.

SPACEY: And if you’re hot, just get naked!

MAKO: Yeah. And play.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

RAVEN: So I’m back. There ya have it. ABDL. Hope you learned something, I hope you liked it, I hope you were turned on. It was really fun to record, so I’m happy about that. And on the way out, I’m gonna return to evil music, and leave you with a song called Slave, appropriately, by Tritonal, featuring Fisher off the album Piercing the Quiet. And if you guys liked this show, if you’re listening and you’re enjoying what I’m putting out there then let me know, leave a positive review on iTunes or email me, tell friends, subscribes, I really really appreciate it. Thanks to all of you who have left good things about it. I love hearing it. So, until next time guys, do dirty things!

Outtro music

Song lyric

Spacey: I’m a slave to your love,

But I don’t mind,

Cause you make me feel safe.

I’m a slave to your love,

But it’s alright.

Cause you make me feel so happy.