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Big Little Podcast Episode 18: Age Play and Asperger's Syndrome

Released: June 19, 2011

Hosts: Mako, Spacey

Guests: Mae

Transcribed by ViridianArc

Female Voice 1: You are listening to the Big Little Podcast

SPACEY: This is a show by, about, and for age players of all kinds.

Female Voice 2: We expect our audience to be mature, consenting adults.

Female Voice 3: Because sometimes the topics on our show are pretty adult too.

MAKO: Just like you.

Male Voice 1: If you're under eighteen and looking for upfront advice about sex please visit

[Intro Music]

SPACEY: Welcome to the Big Little Podcast, a show by, about, and for age players of all kinds. I'm Spacey and I'm here with my brother Mako...

MAKO: That's me.

SPACEY: Yay! and we have a special guest who has decided to step out of the peanut gallery, into the spotlight this time around.

MAE: Hi!

MAKO: It's [?]darklingmae[?].

SPACEY: Yeah...

MAE: Yay...

SPACEY: It's my mommy, it's somebody that I love very deeply and wonderfully, and uh, she's doing something really brave I think.

MAKO: I think so too.

MAE: Thank you.

SPACEY: She has decided to join us to talk about asperger syndrome and how that relates to her life and ageplay and our life together.

MAE: Yay...

SPACEY: Yeah...

MAKO: Because she's what people would call for short an aspie.

SPACEY: That's right.

MAE: Indeed.

SPACEY: But don't shorten it any more than that, it's just rude.

MAKO: [Laughs] Well I think asps are snakes aren't they...

SPACEY: That's true...

MAKO: If that's what you're saying.

MAE: [Hisses]

SPACEY: I was thinking about shortening even more than that.

MAKO: [Laughs] Heh no!

MAE: That's another episode of the Big Little Podcast, stay tuned.

MAKO: OK, so I'm going to be your show definition officer and I have a definition right here that I can read for asperger syndrome.


MAKO: It's a combination of a learning disability, social challenges, and neuro-sensory issues. Uh, social challenges and neuro-sensory being the most relevant to relationships. It's a form of autism, right?

MAE: Um, it's usually considered high-functioning autism but that's something under current debate...


MAE: Some people think it's a separate category...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Some people consider it an umbrella term...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: That DSM-V thing is always changing and being updated so...

SPACEY: Right.

MAE: But for purposes of conversation I would say that it's similar to autism.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: Yeah in fact I uh, I did some reading um, shortly after we got together about asperger's because I wanted to understand it a little better and uh, you know some of the books I read were saying high-functioning autism is kind of rude almost for some people. Some people say it's simply autism, it's what some people call an autism-spectrum disorder?

MAE: Mhmm.

SPACEY: And it's on the autism spectrum but saying high-functioning or not some people found offensive, I found that interesting, maybe something important to keep in mind.

MAKO: Right, I mean I get, one of the reasons that we wanted to talk about it, why we wanted to talk about it on the show specifically is because social situations are often really tough for people with asperger's and age play leads to a lot of really unique social situations, and so we think that there's all kinds of ways that, you know, if you have it or if you love someone or know someone who has it and you're involved in age play with them there's some things to know right?

MAE: Right.

SPACEY: Mhmm, definitely some things to keep in mind to help uh, to help you folks relate better. Uh, of course I happen to think the,a number one most important thing is just good communication, just getting out there and talking.

MAKO: Heck yeah. Um, so what are some of the obstacles that someone who's an aspie has to communication? The special challenges?

MAE: Well one of them is eye contact, um, some aspies will avoid eye contact..

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Others might stare inappropriately...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Some might do both but in different conditions or combinations.

MAKO: Right, right. It's um, it's because like your, what's the word I'm looking for, it's like the, like you can't see social cues that other people pick on, pick up on readily right?


MAE: Yeah that's part of it.

SPACEY: And, so I don't know I did some of my own reasoning we've had some of our own discussion. I tended to notice that uh, mommy would stare more at people when she was first getting to know them.

MAE: I, I think it's also when I'm, one of, one of the things that I do is I have a tendency to look at the person who's talking...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And sometimes look at the person I'm listening to...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And then that's, I think that's how I deal with it...


MAE: But it's, that's a variable, some people will be one way and other people will be another way.

MAKO: See it's really interesting to me too, um, you know, Mae and I were, we were talking before the show uh, a bit about some of the behaviors that people who have asperger's engage in and the things that, a lot of times people that don't have it, and I'm going to toss a word out here, people who are neurotypicals, um, you know they do these behaviors too it's just, it's the cluster of them that makes someone get the diagnosis is the thing...

MAE: Yeah.

MAKO: Like, you know it's interesting the thing about the eye contact and the staring thing, I actually kind of do that a little bit. I remember when I was a kid and my family traveled to China, um, that uh, the people in China were really wigged out by me because generally when I look at people and talk to them I look them right in the eye, um, which apparently in Asian culture is really rude.

SPACEY: Right, that's more of a cultural distinction.

MAKO: Well sure, but, you know, I noticed it's just a behavior of mine, I like to be fully engaged with people and look them right in the eye. You know, I don't know if it's in the same degree, you know...

MAE: Right.

SPACEY: Mhmm. So one of the things that I reasoned, and I'm not sure it's one-hundred percent correct but some of that paying close attention was processing, attempting to process signals that normally, uh, someone again, using the word neurotypical, would process subconsciously?

MAKO: Right.

MAE: See, I think that a big part of asperger syndrome is not that we can't do those things...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: But we have to do them more intentionally...

MAKO: Right

MAE: Where other people do them just without thinking about them.

MAKO: See, you know actually I kind of really, um, value that, you know Marie and I, we're metamores, we're part of the same poly family, and you know I love Marie very, very, very much, you know, and I know she loves me too and...

MAE: Yay.


MAKO: One of the things that I've always really appreciated about you is um, that I think when it comes to emotional knowledge of yourself and others that you've got that to a really large degree that most people don't, I really value that and I think it's one of the things that makes us close because, um, I over-analyze the heck out of everybody, um, you know, and I think I do it because I want to but I think you do it maybe as a coping skill?

MAE: Possibly.

SPACEY: So, maybe it might be interesting to talk more about how one might notice asperger syndrome, how one might notice the combination...

MAKO: Right, what do you look for, what's the cluster?

MAE: OK, um, some of them include, well we started with the eye contact...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Um, should I go through them and list them and talk about them or should I list one, talk about it, list one, talk about it.

SPACEY: Um, let's go through the list first and then...

MAKO: Yeah, yeah.

SPACEY: Maybe go into depth...


SPACEY: I like going broad and then deep if we need to.

MAE: OK, that sounds good, um, one of them is difficulty beginning, continuing, and ending conversations.

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Other one is usually a desire or need for routine...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And difficulty coping when a routine is suddenly interrupted.


MAE: Um, another one is sometimes clumsiness...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: And that can take different forms, um, another is specified interests, sometimes to the degree of obsessiveness.

MAKO: Uh-huh.

MAE: Um, another one is sometimes isolation, um, another one is difficulty, difficulty reading non-verbal skills, that's usually the, the most common one that people notice the most, and probably it's kind of the, um, it's the one that people notice the most and have the most difficulty understanding because a lot of people feel that, oh it's in body language they were giving signals...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: And I knew that because of their energy or...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Their cues or, yeah.

MAKO: Right, you know I think one of the really tough things about this is, um, it's kind of like um, not that you can compare these things, it's a little bit like being colorblind, um, it's an invisible ailment. Nobody knows you're colorblind and I think that like, you know for aspies, a lot of times they'll have awkward social behavior, um, because they're not able to read the signals that are loud for other people...

MAE: Yeah.


MAKO: And I think that, you know, like in an age play context it's really important to be understanding about that kind of thing...

MAE: Yeah, I also think that sometimes there are some aspies who are capable of learning these things...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Just that it doesn't come naturally.

MAKO: So it's a skill for you right?

MAE: Yeah, it is a skill, I mean there, there are um, there are ways of learning those things...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: That, I think a lot of the things that aspies do is um, they do things with a different side of the brain...

MAKO: Interesting.

MAE: So they might learn, they might learn right brained things with their left brain...

MAKO: Uh-huh.

MAE: But their right brain might not be working the same way.

SPACEY: Right, so I kind of equated it, I mean you talk about learning skills to cope, I kind of equate it with someone maybe who has dyslexia...

MAKO: Mhmm.

SPACEY: Right, if you have dyslexia you have trouble reading because things sort of seem backwards to you, but that is something that can be coped with by reading and learning how to sort of interpret things that ware backwards.

MAKO: Oh yeah, I have a thing like that, I favor one eye so because of that I have really poor depth perception, and um, when I was learning to drive there's like all these little tricks that I have to know proper car distance that if I didn't do them I wouldn't know.

SPACEY: Yeah, so I mean I think there's a lot of things that are both sort of learned by eventually getting into social situations and social practice and I think some of the stuff can be taught...

MAE: Yeah.

MAKO: Mhmm.

SPACEY: From what I understand some of these skills can be taught.

MAE: Also um, for example, I think a lot of these symptoms are really pronounced in children...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: But then as people grow up you'll see that some of these symptoms are more pronounced and some of them are more subtle.


SPACEY: I will say that I found it, when I was trying to research and understand my wife a little better I found it incredibly frustrating that it was difficult to find information on asperger's in adults...

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: Most of the information that is available is about asperger's in children.

MAE: And frequently asperger's in boys...

MAKO: Yeah.

MAE: Because its' commonly more diagnosed in boys, and it's also I think women in general they pick up more social training...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And relationship skills because that's what girls are supposed to do.

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Yeah.

MAKO: I remember that you, you had told me um, that when you were a kid that you stumbled across this document right, that was some type of diagnostic tool of something that's how you first started figuring it out?

MAE: My, my psychiatrist or doctors or whoever gave my parents this like, twelve page document with tests and motor skills function and nonverbal stuff...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: It, there were big portions of that read very similar to asperger's syndrome...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: And, um, I guess that this was in the late nineties, early two-thousand...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Around the same time, like around the same time that asperger's became well known, so was ADD and ADHD...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: And some of the other learning disabilities that we're just now learning about...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: So I learned about asperger's when I was researching a friend who had ADHD and similar things, because when I was in high school and kind of bumbling my way around asperger's my brother was actually really struggling with ADHD...

MAKO: Huh.

MAE: So, um, in those terms we're just now becoming known in the scientific community...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And now they're kind of common household terms...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: You see Ritalin on the television whether you're watching the soap operas or if it's in Family Guy or Simpsons.

MAKO: Right.

MAE: It's as well know as depression or bipolar.


MAKO: But not so much the aspie stuff these days huh?

MAE: Um, well there's actually a really well know organization called Autism Speaks...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And a lot of people learned about asperger's throught the autism charities and non-profits...

MAKO: Ooh, you know what that would be, shownote!

MAE: Shownotes, yes, I think.

SPACEY: I think one of the things that's interesting, um, about the organizations in that kind of thing is that uh, again it's part of autism so when people thing of autism and they're looking for support, or actually when people think of aspergers and they're looking for support they may not actually go to word autism to look for that information...

MAE: Right, sometimes there will be like a diagnosis of autism first...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And then it'll be a diagnosis of asperger's later...


SPACEY: And to be clear like a lot of these things that we're talking about there's no known cause for this, there's nothing that anybody knows that you can do to prevent it.

MAE: Yeah, a lot of it's very speculative.

SPACEY: It does tend to run in families um, that's not always the case but according to some of the stuff that I read it tends to run in families. A parent who has asperger's is more likely to have a child that has asperger's for instance. Um, but it's also not the end of the world...

MAE: No, of course not.

SPACEY: It's one of the reasons why we're no here.

MAE: Actually, um, I think we may have said this already but there are many neurotypical people who have one or two of those momentarily, symptoms momentarily, but not have the cluster...

MAKO: Right, like, gosh I don't know the thing about having an obsessive, specified interest, I don't have anything like that right?

MAE: Yeah, no not at all.

MAE & SPACEY: Sharks, sharks, sharks, sharks, sharks.

MAKO: [Laughs]

MAE: Actually I think um, for many people, I think in children specialized interests are, there's usually one or two but in adults as they get older they sometimes develop more...


MAE: So it's easier to conversate with them and BDSM and ageplay can also be a specialized interest.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: Absolutely, and I think one of the ways that, uh, one of the reasons they bring up specialized interests though is that they have a tendency to want to fixate and talk about that regardless of the interest of the person on the other side of the conversation.

MAKO: [Laughs]

MAE: Indeed.


MAKO: Which is lucky because age play and BDSM are fascinating. [Laughs]

MAE: [Laughs] They definitely are.

SPACEY: Very good, so another thing I would say is different from some of those disorders you mentioned, ADHD and that kind of thing, is that today we're learning of medications that can help lessen symptoms...

MAE: Mhmm.

SPACEY: For some of those, you know there's no guaranteed solution for any of that, even as with any type of uh, psychological treat, thing that you're treating it usually takes experimentation and trying different solutions but...

MAE: I think a lot of the um, all of the treatments of asperger's are more logical type things, more experiential...

SPACEY: Right.

MAE: Type things.

SPACEY: But I'm not aware of any drug treatment for instance or anything along that line.

MAE: I don't think people are really going for physical treatment, I think it's more, OK, how is this effecting you and how can we handle it...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: And how are you coming with it etc.

MAKO: Right, what are the skills you need to learn to be able to get around the things that you can't perceive, that sort of thing.

MAE: Mhmm.

MAKO: Yeah, so you know, I mean having said that um, one of the reasons why we wanted to do the show um, is that um, you know it's funny, like brother and Mae and I, we're kind of like the perfect storm of situational relationship people to sort of speak about all these different paradigms or perspectives about, you know, how to be an age player that has this or how to be around one that has it or how to be in a relationship with one that has it. I think that there are, you know, like special considerations um, I'll go first if you want.


SPACEY: Sure, I would be happy to talk about how, sort of, our relationship and my awareness of asperger's and how that changed over time...

MAKO: Well then you go first. [Laughs]

SPACEY: Right, um, so I will say that when I first met Mommy I wasn't really aware of the concept of asperger's...

MAKO: Mhmm.

SPACEY: Um, I think I may had maybe known one or two people with it, and um, but for the most part I didn't have any motivation to explore it further or know more about it at that point of my life um, and it's not really something I thought about when I first met her, like this is not the thing that just smacks me over the head and goes 'well she's different than other people she has asperger's,' you know, kind of thing...

MAKO: It's not like people wear a sign. [Laughs]

SPACEY: Right right, there wasn't like a sign, there wasn't, it wasn't an obvious kind of thing, I enjoyed talking to her um, you know, if she was staring I was in love so I was staring too so, so what?

MAE: Aww.

MAKO: [Laughs]

SPACYE: Um, yeah um...

MAKO: So cute.

SPACEY: Yeah, uh so it really took time for me to see some of these things that she's talking about, you know since we are being honest I noticed some of the clumsiness early on...

MAE: [Laughs]

SPACEY: Right um, I have my own moments of clumsiness so I never think to judge that...

MAKO: Yeah. [Laughs]

SPACEY: Uh, but you know I notice it and what that is, is from what I understand from my own reading again, is an issue with a sense that we rarely talk about, it's sort of your sixth sense, it's called proprioception.

MAKO: I know all about that.

SPACEY: Which is, yeah which is just the awareness of where your body is in space and time, and um, we all go through moments where we fail to be aware of where our body is in space and time and that's where we stub our toes, or we trip over something, or we accidentally bump into someone who's next to us without thinking about it.

MAKO: I do that all the time. [Laughs]

SPACEY: I think it's something that can be more pronounced with some folks who have asperger syndrome...

MAKO: Mhmm.

SPACEY: Uh, and so I noticed that ,uh, I guess earlier on, um after we, oh...

MAE: I just wanted to say that there's like one thing that I seem to be really self-conscious about that nobody ever notices.

MAKO: What's that?

MAE: And that's my stuttering problem...

SPACEY: Yeah, I haven't noticed it at all...

MAE: I think I have a huge stuttering problem...


MAE: But I guess I'm really self-conscious about it but other people rarely notice it...

SPACEY: I, I really never noticed it.

MAE: But that's, I think that's also, it might be an aspie thing it might not be, but...

MAKO: Gosh, you know, I've know you so many years now and I don't think I've ever noticed it.

MAE: I think it might be when I get really excited about things...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And I think it's partially, maybe being excited with some of the neurosensory stuff...

MAKO: Mhmm, you get overwhelmed a little.

SPACEY: So I might say that it also might be interpreted as sort of an age play moment if and when that happens.

MAKO: [Laughs]

MAE: Possibly.

SPACEY: Because I noticed that when I go into more of an age play excited headspace you're way more likely to hear me stutter in that kind of situation, um...

MAE: Possibly.

SPACEY: And so it's possible that we're processing that differently.

MAKO: I, I know I do that to.

MAE: I think it's the mental processing and sometimes being, my brain works a lot faster than my mouth...

MAKO: [Laughs] Yeah.

MAE: And sometimes it's the, trying to process the, the railways between the two...

MAKO: Right, yeah I know that when I'm little that happens to me too a whole bunch. There's this thing that this particularly drives Casey insane, that I'll go to tell her about something and because my full complement of language is not available to me I'll just say 'and...and yeah,' and I think that I've now told her everything that there is to know...

MAE: [Laughs]

MAKO: About this thing that we're doing and she's like 'what' and I'm like 'I just told you.'

SPACEY: Yeah, don't do that yeah.

MAKO: I do that a lot.


MAKO: [Laughs] You just did it brother.

SPACEY: Yeah...It's alright, I absolutely do that. I'm trying to think of other things that I sort of noticed earlier on or that we sort of adapted to over time, like I haven't noticed any strong need for routine with you.

MAE: I think that's partially because I'm a grown-up and if I need routine I'll create if for myself...


MAE: And, I think that's something that's particularly difficult for parents of people who have asperger's is that when you're a kid you don't really have a choice in your routine it's up to your parents, it's up to your teachers, it's up to your people you go to church with...

MAKO: Right.


MAE: But when you're an adult and you know you can, outside of the workplace, you can do what you want.

MAKO: You can make all the [Unintelligible] you want.

MAE: Yeah, and I think that um, it's because adults have more options for creating their own routines for work that work for them and aspergers who engage in age play have the chance to create their own family and childhood routines.

MAKO: Oh see, I was just going to ask you that, so like...

SPACEY: I was just going to bring up that in fact, between us, not just routines but you might say that this is sort of a routine, we've developed our own rituals...

MAE: Yes.

SPACEY: The things that we do together like, when we're driving somewhere I open the door for my Mommy...

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: I get her seated in the car and give her a big ol' kiss because it's frankly fun, now these aren't things we do because we have to have a ritual we have to do this, we do it because it's fun and I love her and it's a nice way to show it, um but I guess I could consider that a routine as well.

MAKO: And it's kind of power exchange at the same time.

MAE: Yes.

SPACEY: Exactly.

MAE: I think um, personally between me and spacey...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: The things that come up the most often...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Are the neurosensory issues...

MAKO: Interesting.

MAE: And those are things like being in a crowded mall...

MAKO: Oh yeah.

MAE: Or um, or doing, or having a very active day...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And the brain just, I call it being fried...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: You kind of, it's kind of like having the snowy TV with the static sound.


MAKO: Have you ever uh, have you ever heard the term about running out of spoons?

MAE: No, tell me.

MAKO: It's this thing that other friends of mine that have hard to perceive, what people call an invisible illness, like fibromyalgia is a good example of that right where, you know you, you have joint pain and you have achiness but if you're rested up you can, you know, go do things like everybody else but there comes this certain point in the day that, that's it, you're done...

MAE: You're done, yes.

MAKO: You're done, and what they say is that it's almost like, you have this like,you know, silverware drawer in your mental kitchen filled with spoons and throughout the day you're like 'I'm going to take this spoon and eat breakfast,' another spoon and do this, another spoon and do this but it gets to a certain point in the day that you're out of spoons.

SPACEY: Yeah...

MAKO: You know.

SPACEY: You have to recharge.

MAE: Yeah.

MAKO: You've got to recharge, wash your dishes, you know.

MAE: I, I think that Spacey is really good at knowing when, when I'm fried and knowing what kind of overstimulates me and, you know, encourages me to take some type of break, take a nap, step outside, get recharged...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: It kind of, it's kind of like rebooting the computer.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: I will say that my awareness of that type of stuff has changed immensely...

MAE: Yeah.

SPACEY: Um, I've always been, now I'm an introvert which you might think is weird being on a podcast, being an introvert but what that means is when I do particularly strong social things then I need time to recharge afterward because those things are draining for me so I get that sort of in the longer bigger since, but before I met you I wasn't really aware of large crowds as much, I wasn't aware of sort of the noise, the din that happens in places, um, and all of that just over time I've become more aware of uh, one of the things that I do, and I do it quite naturally, again it's not something that I have to do is at those times I'll find myself moving closer to be with her to try to be a connection in that situation, right, because we kind of draw from each-other in that respect I think.

MAKO: See now this is funny, OK, because it brings up something that I wanted to talk about. I'm, you know uh, very protective of Mae when we go places. You know I can recall incidents like at Black Rose or at camp, you know, places when I know that we can be around a whole bunch of craziness, you know lots of people and action going on and I kind of watch out for her and, you know, it's for a couple of reasons, you know, because a lot of the same sort of crowd over-stimulation issues than you have I have them too, not like you, OK, I would say that if on the scale of how much it wears you out you're an eight out of ten, I'm like maybe a five or a six, but I mean I don't like crowds either. So there's this behavior that I find myself doing all the time that actually sometimes I have a tiny amount of guilt over which is that I sort of unintentionally act as your wing-man, you know, elbowing people out of the way and making sure that there's a quiet space for you. You know, if like, if it looks like you're fried, you know um, I try to do something about it, um, but it's not like you ever asked me to do and I just kind of do it, you know, so it's OK right?

MAE: It is OK and I think that it's really helpful for aspies who have a neurotypical partner to kind of be that bridge between the aspie and the neurotypical people and to kind of benefit both...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Both the people who are neurotypical and the people who are aspie and kind of notice if there was a moment of clumsiness that the aspie didn't notice or there was a verbal cue or something that was missed. I find it beneficial...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: But I also, I know that some people might take offense.

MAKO: Right, oh yeah like the thing that Valentalae was saying way back in the blindness episode, um, about the non-consensual ageplay like, you know, don't give someone help that they're not asking for or at least not without talking about it I guess.

SPACEY: Right.

MAE: Yeah.

SPACEY: And I would again say that a lot of what I do is just sort of, I don't think about it much...

MAKO: Mhmm.

SPACEY: Like it's just something that has naturally grown from our relationship I think.

MAKO: Well and you're nice brother. [Laughs]

SPACEY: Well, possibly.

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Um, I'll also say that one of the difficulties that the people with asperger's have is they sometimes have difficulty with people who, whose verbal language and non-verbal language don't match...


MAE: For example people who are people who use sarcasm...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: People who use a lot of irony, people who are passive-aggressive...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Or feel the need to repress their feeling...

MAKO: Ooh yeah that's a tough one.

MAE: And that's something that asperger's, people with asperger's frequently deal with, for example in the workplace or in um, or with acquaintances and the way that I've handled that is I've always been very attracted to people people who are very outspoken, people who say what they mean and mean what they say.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: Right.

MAE: So.

SPACEY: It's something I've been working on, it's funny that you met me in a time of my life where I decided that was really important to me and so it worked out really well in that respect.

MAE: I think that, um, aspies, they both respect radical honesty and they use it...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Sometimes to their detrement.

MAKE: [Laughs] I've seen it, yeah I've seen it. You know, I think...

SPACEY: I will say I also fail at it quite a bit too by the way, I say that I'm trying to do this. I fail a lot, that doesn't mean that the act of doing isn't important.

MAKO: You're human, you know, um, you know Mae is not the first aspie I've ever known, um, I have several friends that are as well, um, and it's, you know, I stumbled across some pain points with it myself, um, there's this particular story I want to tell, you know, um, it was a couple years ago and I can't remember the names of the sports teams because I'm not like a big sports guy, but I was talking over text messages with this friend of mine and we were just bantering and trading puns and jokes and whatever and this friend of mine who, he's an aspie, he said something about, I want to say the guy's last name is Plaxico or Plexico Burress, he's an athlete, um...

SPACEY: We're all about the sports here...

MAKO: Oh yeah.

SPACEY: Go team.

MAE: It's [?] and the sharks.

SPACEY: That's right.

MAKO: Well sharks that's good. But, um, he said something about this Plaxico and what a funny name it is and, you know, I had this moment of like, you know, sarcastic humor and I was like 'dude, my mom's name is Plaxico,' and, now let me just say, you know, non verbal social cues there aren't any to start with over a text message but really, because he has not even the sense of being able to read sarcasm he actually felt bad and he thought I was serious and, you know, he's like 'oh I'm really sorry,' and then I realized what I had done and I just felt like a complete and utter a-hole and I was like 'no, no, I'm sorry, I was kidding, it's a joke, I was being sarcastic, I apologize.'

SPACEY: But that's a time where the wink emoticon would really come in handy...

MAKO: I guess, you know...

SPACEY: If people had emoticons a lot of this communication issue wouldn't be so bad when we're talking, right.

MAKO: That would be kind of cool I guess. But, you know, I personally, I've had to, um, and it's not like I'm constantly working on this or anything, but I think there's a degree of sensitivity that I have now that I didn't used to, um, and I think it's really important to work on that or just, just be aware of it because especially, you know, with any kind of kink or fetish interest, um, there's this extra layer of meaning going on or these extra opportunities for social awkwardness, you know, um, I mean heck, just off the top of my head, um, you know if you're hanging out with age playing friends who regresss, you don't know if they regress, or they're regressed or not, or maybe if you don't know if they're in a 'sex is cool' fun mode versus a 'no, no I'm coloring,' you know 'don't touch my bits,' mode, you know, and I could see where that would be, you know, cause [?]steam[?].

MAE: Well for me, um, especially when it comes to any type of, um, sexual age play, one, it's very relationship oriented for me...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: But also I have a tendency to at least discuss it...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Before doing anything about it and also, um, I want them to come to me...

MAKO: Yeah.

MAE: Especially if they're little.

MAKO: That's a good point, I would imagine that, um, negotiation is like a really big deal for you.

MAE: Yes, I think that negotiation is a really big deal for me and I think that it's more conscious and more intentional...


MAE: I've also noticed that because I do have asperger's, um, when it comes to any type of physical play I'm really drawn to people who are very responsive both um, both verbally, physically, energetically...

MAKO: Mhmm, right.

MAE: I like a lot of reaction...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: And I think there are some, there are some very, but especially with BDSM and spanking play, there are some who are very stoic...

MAKO: Right, that doesn't do anything for you.

MAE: Right it doesn't do anything for me and it, it's not beneficial for me.


MAKO: It's interesting.

SPACEY: Some people love that but uh, I have to admit even when I'm topping somebody I like the response.

MAE: The responsiveness that...

MAKO: Well OK, in the same vein what about bratty behavior because it's often cartoony and often very, like um, projected you know, um, is that better for you?

MAE: Bratty behavior...


MAE: I don't particularly like brats but I can't say...

SPACEY: Actually she likes Scotty a lot but Scotty understands when to brat and when not to brat.

MAE: Um, I don't, I prefer not to be in direct relationships with brats...

MAKO: Uh huh, right.

MAE: Myself, but I have them as friends...

MAKO: Sure.

MAE: And it's not, that's not necessarily related to asperger's, I think that that's an idividual...

MAKO: Preference, yeah OK that's fair.

MAE: I also, um, I kind of identify as an instigator.

MAKO: [Laughs] Right.


MAE: So for me I like to kind of play that game and see how it plays out among other people but to kind of have that distance...

MAKO: Mhmm.

SPACEY: We're going to have to do the instigator show.

MAKO: I find it really interesting that you guys are with each-other and that you're both instigators, you know?

MAE: Oh yeah, we definitely play off that, also one of my, um, primary dynamics or turn-ons is what I call the bad girl/good girl dynamic and it's, you know, the dominant girl, the dominant little with the submissive little...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Who kind of turns on and does naughty things with the nice one...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Yeah, that's kind of a, that's my big thing, one of my big things, I have many big things, I'm very well endowed in my age play practices, my age play turn-ons.

SPACEY: I'd like to think that one of her big things is sitting next to her right now.

MAE: Oh yeah...

MAKO: Well, yeah.

MAE: That's cute.

SPACEY: Um, may I ask a question because I'm curious...

MAE: Sure.

SPACEY: So one of the things I have noticed, um, is that there are some things that you, uh, don't seem to have an awareness of as much, like leaving a beverage here or there or that kind of thing. Not really realizing like, one of the things that I do in the house is I go through and pick up these beverage containers and throw them away and that kind of thing.

MAE: Oh yeah, I think...

SPACEY: I wondered if that was related.

MAE: I don't think it is, I think that that's just a me thing because I think there are some asperger's people who just really need to be organized because its' part of their ritual...

SPACEY: Right.

MAE: So it think that, the thing with aspies is that it sometimes overlaps with other disorders,ADH ...ADD is one of them, that's why it's commonly associated with that but another is OCD...


MAE: And I think that you pick up on it more because I think you might have some more of those tendencies...

SPACEY: I might be more OCD.

MAE: I think you're a little bit OCD where I don't think brother...

MAKO: You have a whole bunch of OCD. [Laughs]

MAE: Where don't I think brother would notice it as much...

SPACEY: Hold on I gotta go flip the light switch.

MAE: I think we have more in common in that department of 'oh there's an empty beverage,' I left an empty beverage there because I went upstairs and then I forgot about it and then I come downstairs and I'll be like 'oh it's empty better throw that away now,' but it'll be there for like, half an hour...

SPACEY: Or a couple of days.

MAE: You know, whatever.

MAKO: It's all good, you know.

SPACEY: That's OK.

MAE: Yeah.

SPACEY: No, I'm perfectly fine with it I just wondered if some of those things that I feel like I'm aware of that, I've come to realize that there's a lot of stuff that you're just not aware of.

MAE: Yeah, and I think that's a personality trait on my part.


MAE: Because I think that some are definitely more organized and have that routine where for some, um, reason I don't like routine...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: Or, there are some routines that I like but my need for routine is fairly minimal.

MAKO: Right.

MAE: I like, I'm a very independent person I like lots of flexibility I actually have, I have kind of a knee-jerk response to control actually...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Yeah.

MAKO: That's interesting, you know, I know that one of your, I'm not sure if it's like an age play thing, I know that you like that being chased and running away from being chased thing, I remember that kidnapping at camp that year...

MAE: Oh, yeah I've had a few.

MAKO: Mae that was hot actually.

SPACEY: It's too bad a lot of the kidnappers don't know.

MAKO: Yeah. [Laughs]

MAE: So, I think what that really, I don't identify as submissive, I'm not into control or humiliation...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: I'm not really a masochist but what that does for me is really resetting...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: You know, I run around, and I think age players do this as well, I just kind of run myself around until I can't do it anymore...

MAKO: [Laughing] Right.

MAE: And then I'm just kind of free, empty, I don't get the right word.

MAKO: No, I get that, it's cathartic.

MAE: Yeah.

SPACEY: Like a puppy dog.

MAE: It's cathartic, it's very cathartic and, it's um, so I really like that and I really need to resist and push and fight and when I'm completely exhausted and can't do it anymore that's where I kind of got to that submissive place but that's not my...

MAKO: I totally get that.

MAE: That's not my...

SPACEY: Default, yeah.

MAE: Default, that's not how I operate in the world...

MAKO: Right, no, you know I totally understand that because I have a whole thing with being held down, I love to be held down, um, and to fight against it and then to sort of fail at fighting against it and then have to just relax and be stuck where I am...

MAE: Yeah.

MAKO: That's a whole other show. [Laughs]

MAE: Yeah, I think a resistance play show is in the future.

MAKO: [Laughs] Yay, will you hold me to it?

MAE: Sure.

MAKO: Um, but so that's, I totally get that um, but I think that's interesting would you say that, um, are there things that you do in age play that are, what's the way to say this, they ease the pressures of social dissonance or suffering that you have through your aspie stuff, like um, like I'll watch you and brother a lot of times with the bit of ritual stuff that you have like the car thing is really sweet...

MAE: Aww.

MAKO: You know and I've seen.

SPACEY: And fun.

MAKO: Yeah, you know, like OK, I'm going to admit to the audience that like, uh, you know, it makes might heart swell that because like, the two of them, while they're doing it they just smile at each-other, like just hugely, you know, and I get a big thing out of that it makes me happy...

MAE: Frubble.

MAKO: Yeah it's a huge amount of frubble, oh I guess we should 'shownotes' that and define it, frubble is the pleasure that you get at seeing someone else's pleasure with someone else doing something that has nothing to do with you it's a poly thing...

MAE: It's the 'aww, that's so sweet' effect.

MAKE: Exactly, you know, um, it's interesting to me because, I mean, clearly it's an age play thing, it's clearly some kind of, like, a DS thing, um, but it's a ritual thing too I guess.

MAE: Yeah.

SPACEY: It is a ritual for us and it's, it's a love thing, I mean it's just, straight up that's what it is.

MAE: Yeah I don't think being an age player is directly related to aspie in any way...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: I think it's more coincidental for me but there are some people who do, um, have an age play correspondence through asperger's syndrome, I'm not one of them but future guests can probably speak better to that than I can.

MAKO: Yeah, actually I'm glad that you brought that up, um, I'm sorry brother you look like you've got something to say.

SPACEY: Well I want to ask another question...


SPACEY: Um, and that is, one of the things that I think you're really, really good at that it balances me out because I'm really, really not good at it...


SPACEY: Is being in the moment...

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: And I wondered if at all you thought that that might be related to your asperger's or if that's just a personal personality trait or if there's maybe some kind of combination.

MAE: Honestly I think it's, um, something I really, really, really had to work at...

MAKO: Interesting.

MAE: When I was younger I had other things going on, other psychological things going on, it's not really something I've been working on...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: So it's not necessarily, it hasn't always been my default but now it's become my default over time.

MAKO: Right, well you know not to go all Taoist on you guys, um, mindfulness, which that's really what you're talking about brother is the practice of mindfulness, um, that's a skill, I mean it's learned, you know.

SPACEY: Right, well I guess what I'm talking about is often, uh, I feel like I have a more obsessive need to plan...

MAKO: [Laughs] No.

SPACEY: Like, I need to, it's something that I tend to enjoy in fact, you know it's 'OK, we're going to go here, here's some things that we could do and then after that we could do these other things possibly,' and it would make a lot of sense to tackle these in this kind of order and while I'm there I'm often thinking about 'OK how can I make the next thing awesome for people.'

MAKO: Right, which by the way is why, if you ever have the opportunity to go to Disney with my brother, that's what you want to do, um, because he's amazing at getting you through Disney and seeing the most stuff in the most, in the shortest amount of time possible.

MAE: OK, one of the things that um, one on the subject of mindfulness and one of the things that I, he did is there was a time in my life where, I think that from the time we're about five years old...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: To the time we're about eighteen you have a lot of structure and planning in your life because you spend, probably eight hours a day in school.

MAKO: Right.

MAE: And then you may or may not spend another four years in school...

MAKO: Right.

MAE: And then you go from school to having a nine to five job, so it's very...

SPACEY: Regimental.

MAE: It's very common for people to have some type of regiment or routine in their lives...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And I kind of struggled for a really long time over, um, well I don't have that routine, I don't have that structure...

MAKO: Right, so what are you going to do for yourself.

MAE: Right, and for me, um, so I really learned to, um, just have some gratitude for my free time and my independence...

MAKO: Mhmm.

MAE: And for me that's what being mindful was about, mindful at the moment was about for me.

MAKO: Right.

MAE: Because I had lots of routine and structure and suddenly found myself without it.

MAKO: Yeah, I know that like, it's funny, when I've been a Taoist for about six, seven years now and when I first got involved in the practice of it, in Tao cultivation, um, I didn't know what I was doing, um, and I struggled with a lot of these things and spent a lot of time in contemplation and meditation which that hasn't changed, but I remember brother and I used to have these endless conversations about, um, what turned out to be mindfulness, I think the way I used to refer to it is 'moving with Tao' or 'not striving' or, you know, just being focused in the moment and I, all the time I'd call him up and I'd be like 'hey brother, NOW I'M DOING IT,' you know, which clearly means I wasn't, you know, it's funny, um, but I do think that, you know, and I do think this is good for anybody, OK, whether you're an aspie or you know an aspie or not, um, you know...

SPACEY: Um, that's your song.

MAKO & SPACEY: [SIGNING] If you're aspie and you know it clap your hands.

SPACEY: Sorry.

MAKO: That's terrible, um, but that skill that we're talking about, what it is is it's the ability to not judge what you're doing but to just fully drink it in, like instead of eating your sandwich and going 'oh, this is not that great,' or, you know 'oh this is a really good sandwich,' that moment where you step aside and analyze, that's the opposite of mindfulness, you know, just eat the sandwich, you know, and I actually, I find that age play, well, actually any kind of alternative play is a really good focus for maintaining mindfulness, um, there comes a point at which, let's say you're getting a spanking, and it hurts but it hurts in a way that feels good you're going to just, like, stop saying ow and stop having that moment of externalizing like 'ooh I'm getting a spanking isn't that cool,' and you're just going to feel it, your body relaxes and you just like, collapse over the person's lap or whatever, and you, you just mainline the feeling, and I, I think that's the secret to mindfulness...

SPACEY: Endorphin rush.

MAKO: Well yeah, I think that's the secret to mindfulness is, um...

SPACEY: Endorphin rushes?

MAKO: Well, no, when you feel something so fully that your little internal sportscaster stops talking about it, then you know you're there.

SPACEY: Fair enough, well this seems like an interesting place to end it but I don't want to end it too soon...


SPACEY: Is there anything else that anyone wants to add, did we have any questions or...

MAE: I donít' at the moment.


MAE: But we can always come back.

MAKO: Yeah, well actually that's the point I did want to talk about which is that this is a huge topic and there's so much, so much to talk about with this, um, I know that we have some listeners who are aspies and who I mentioned we were going to do this show to, and, you know, I would encourage them to maybe call the show line with observations, questions...

SPACEY: Or possibly join in a future show...

MAKO: Yeah, that would be amazing, um, so any questions that people have, any observations that you have, we want to hear them.

SPACEY: Yeah, absolutely, so I want to just take the time, I know it might seem in-genuine because I'm thanking my beautiful wife and mommy but I really thank you, I mean you really opened up a lot...

MAE: Oh, thank you.

SPACEY: And what you're doing here...

MAKO: It's brave.

SPACEY: It is hugely brave and it's going to help a lot of people I think.

MAE: I will say I had some wonderful facilitators and wing-men, I can see your little airplane dance.

SPACEY: Is that like the chicken dance?

MAKO: Yeah but you hold your arms out like an airplane instead. [Laughs]

SPACEY: Alright, well thank you.

MAE: Thank you.

SPACEY: Would you like to let people know how to get in touch with you?

MAE: Um, well I'm darklingmae on fetlife but if you're not on fetlife I'm

SPACEY: So let me tell you how to get in touch with us, your hosts for the show.

MAKO: Because there are so many ways.

SPACEY: So one of the ways is you can visit our website and our website is, and there you can find the shownotes for this show and for other shows that we've done, um, and you can leave a comment on them, um, you can also write to us, that email address is hosts, h-o-s-t-s, at

MAKO: Our twitter which is biglittlepdcast, um, because it's a little too big little for twitter, and you can do our most favoritest thing of all...


MAKO: Yay, that number is (678)421-4257, but if you call please be sure to let us know it's OK to use it on the show.

SPACEY: Exactly, because if you don't tell us we'll just be like 'oh that was an awesome voice-mail but we can't use it.'

MAKO: And we'll be sad. [Laughs]

SPACEY: But now we're happy [music begins] and we thank you so much for coming on and talking about this and I do look forward to revisiting this in the future, I think that hopefully we'll hear from others and we'll hear about their experiences too.

MAKO: Yeah, thanks everybody.

SPACEY: Thanks for listening.