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Big Little Podcast Episode 10: Listener Questions and More

Released April 24, 2011

Hosts: Spacey, Mako

Guests: None

Transcribed by: Valentalae

ANDREA: You’re listening to the Big Little Podcast, a show by, about and for age players of all kinds. We expect our audience to be mature consenting adults, because sometimes the topics on our show are pretty adult too, just like you. If you are under 18 and looking for upfront advice about sex, please visit

Intro Music

SPACEY: Welcome to the Big Little Podcast, a show by, about and for age players of all kinds. I’m Spacey and I’m here with my brother…

MAKO: Mako, that’s me!

SPACEY: Yay! And, today we don’t have any special guests for you. We’re gonna be your special guests.

MAKO: That’s right.

SPACEY: Cuz we’ll tackle a few of the questions that you brought us and a few other topics we’ll get into as we go along.

MAKO: Yeah. So, the show’s been going really well. And, not to speak for Brother, although I can, we’re just really pleased with how well it’s been going, how well you guys have all been receiving us, and the emails we’ve gotten, the amazing number of listeners we’ve gotten and responses from, frankly around the world!

SPACEY: Absolutely, I think not just please but surprised, gobsmacked even! Amazed!

MAKO: Startled! (Laugh)

SPACEY: Shocking!

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: It’s really been incredible. Honestly, I would say when we started out to do this, we never expected to have the impact that we’ve had in this short period of time. To have had the outpouring of folks that share their thanks for doing this. And so I just want to let you know, thank you.

MAKO: Yeah we love you guys.

SPACEY: Thank you for supporting us. I mean, it’s huge! It’s not always easy to do this stuff. Hopefully we make it sound easy. I’m not sure that we always accomplish that, but you guys make us want to keep doing it. And, you, you sitting there, you, the one not picking your nose right now… MAKO: (Laugh) We saw that.

SPACEY: You make us wanna keep going.

MAKO: Ya know, there’s someone else I really wanna thank too. I wanna thank our partners who have been really patient and really indulgent with us.

SPACEY: Indeed. They’ve lost a lot of hours to the podcast. Probably more than almost any other project that we’ve done.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: So, thank you. (Laugh) I would say there are too many to name but there aren’t that many.

MAKO: Right, well there’s Mae, who I love.

SPACEY: That’s right. Lady Mae, my mommy. And then there’re people that I love over there in DC. There’s Kacie and there’s Missy,, just fantabulous partners to my brother.

MAKO: It’s true. And we’re just knocked out by how well we’ve been received, and by how aware people are of how important this thing we’re doing is. I mean, I wanna say this. I’ve been an advocate for age play for years, more than a decade.

SPACEY: Mmhmm, as have I but that’s not a surprise. (Laugh)

MAKO: Right. Same person. As far as I’m concerned, this is the most important thing I’ve ever done.

SPACEY: I agree. I had the fortune of starting, probably what was one of the first websites for adult babies, and that I felt like was reaching out and helping folks. And then I’ve moved on to starting one of the first publically known munches for adult babies and then later age players of all kinds. And that again felt like it was the next most important thing in my life. And this really feels like it’s my calling. It’s our calling I think.

MAKO: Yeah. I think part of what makes it work so well is that we have a lot of the same thoughts about things but some very different thoughts too. And we really give a damn about one another, and we really give a damn about the most important part of our show, which is, it’s that guy who’s listening and that girl who’s listening right now. We care about you guys. I think it shows.

SPACEY: I would say, we’ve only been doing this two months now, but there have been times where it’s been, “Ya know, it’s kinda rough. Let’s skip a show or two. Let’s not do this.” And that may happen. I’m not gonna lie. We’re busy people, we’re involved in other things. We have partners and lives and work. But then we get emails like the folks that tell us that they’ve shared this with their partner, and it’s the first way that they’ve been able to open up with their partner about their interests in this kind of thing. Or that they’ve felt all alone in the world…

MAKO: Right and then suddenly…

SPACEY: They heard this and…

MAKO: For an hour, they were home again.

SPACEY: I know, gosh!

MAKO: That was like a, good, punch in my face.

SPACEY: That’s right. It’s clear that we just have to keep doing it.

MAKO: Yeah. You’re stuck with us guys!

SPACEY: Hope you’re happy about it. (Laugh)

MAKO: So having said that, I promise I’ll do some fiction that’s longer, and that doesn’t drop you off the end of a cliff.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: I promise.

SPACEY: We’ve actually had a few folks offer to provide their own fiction already, which I’m really really thankful for.

MAKO: Yeah, we’ll be in touch real soon to talk about that, and how we’re gonna handle it, and what we wanna do with it.

SPACEY: I should also say that we’ve been so busy that we haven’t always been great about responding to all the comments and the kind people that have written to us. I wanna apologize because it’s really important to me that I get back to everyone and let them know how much they’re appreciated.

MAKO: It’s true.

SPACEY: And how much we appreciate you just taking the time to let us know what your thoughts are. Not everybody is as excited about the show. We occasionally get some criticisms, and that’s fine. Actually we want those criticisms too. They’re important, they help us get better. But that you’ve taken that time just means so much, and so I want you to know that, here on this show, if I can’t necessarily reach out to you directly, or I don’t always reach out to you directly all the time, accept my apology. I am trying to work through the backlog.

MAKO: What we need, it’s like Minx says, we need a minion.

SPACEY: Indeed. We probably need a few minions.

MAKO: Anyone out there wanna be our minion?

SPACEY: (Laugh) Not that kinda minion!

MAKO: Yeah. Speak for yourself!


SPACEY: Alrighty. Well, so speaking of people that have written in, why don’t we tackle some of these great comments we’ve gotten already.

MAKO: Sure.

SPACEY: Would you care to read the first one?

MAKO: I’d love to. One of our listeners, Raymond, sent us this wonderful mail. He said, “First of all, I’d really like to thank you for this podcast. Not only is it a diamond in the rough in the ABDL age play etc community, but it is also been a Godsend in explaining things to my wife that I’ve yet to find words for. It also helps the both of us to be told, versus text-based entries online, that we’re nowhere near alone in our lifestyle choices. We’re both waiting for some alone/quiet time to listen to the newest episode about self-esteem and coming out. You two are awesome hosts, you have awesome guests, and I always look forward to new shows in the feed.”

SPACEY: Alright, thank you Raymond! Really really really kind. And again, the fact that you and your partner are able to share that together is hugely meaningful.

MAKO: Absolutely.

SPACEY: And most importantly, I hope it’s really starting some great comversations between the two of you. Because, we can only try to give you some guideposts, but in the end it’s really…

MAKO: It’s about you.

SPACEY: About the relationship that you guys both establish together.

MAKO: Right. There’s some stuff in here I do wanna respond to. I absolutely agree with you that, a comforting word from a friendly voice means so much. It’s like the old saying about how a picture is worth a thousand words. By now, the self-esteem and coming out show’s been out for about a week. And hopefully you’ve had the time to listen. And I really wanna know what you guys think about it.

SPACEY: Indeed. Indeed. So, we have another comment, and I’m going to attempt to read this one. I probably will butcher it a little bit because, well, I’m not a professional speaker as it were, as my brother, who is voice-trained. But I’m gonna do my best here. It actually comes from a person who, we didn’t have their permission to use their name. They didn’t say whether we could or couldn’t, but we tend to err on the side of caution and such things. So, lemme just dive right in. It says, “Thanks for doing the podcasts! They have been very educational. In Podcast episode 6, Mako asked the question, ‘for those of you out there who are non-sexual age players, who are you most comfortable with as your big, a mommy or a daddy, or does it matter?’ I’m confused by the term ‘non-sexual age player’. I think I’m a non-sexual age player, but it’s a little more complicated. First, let me tell you that I’m…” I’m gonna leave the age out. “… years old, and into regression stories and scenarios. I get a thrill out of the idea of a man being a man or teenager who’s struggling to maintain his adult status, but ultimately becomes a toddler, and is forced into diapers and treated like one. On business trips, I had several play sessions as a little. I draw the line at sex, ‘creaming’, or even masturbation. It’s thrilling enough for me to be a little toddler unable to control my bladder or bowels. I also typically set up scenes in advance where there is some slight verbal humiliation involved. ‘Look at you! You’re not a grown man anymore.’ Or, ‘Did you poopoo or peepee in your diaper?’ I guess the release for me is the actual act or to me anyway, the humiliation of filling my diaper in a scene. It’s different than when I’m at home. For me, I’m very much in the closet on this subject. At home, I will masturbate to an age regression story, typically to the humiliating scenes. With that said, I am more thrilled by the idea of a dominant woman checking me and treating me like a child than than a dominant man. It may be because I’m a heterosexual and there is that sexuality piece that I described above. I also had a childhood that included an abusive mother, so the sessions are somewhat like therapy for me. Once I am forced into diapers, I enjoy a very loving but dominant mommy figure.” And he goes onto say a bit more, but I think that’s the majority of the comment there.

MAKO: Sure. Oh, there’s so much in here to talk about. It’s funny. Non-sexual age player… That is a rough term to wrap your head around because, what the heck is sex anyway?

SPACEY: It’s quite the disputed term actually. There are different people that have different senses of what that means. Actually, hopefully in the future we’ll be doing a show on the topic.

MAKO: Probably more than one.

SPACEY: Yeah, getting a few folks who identify as non-sexual age players on here to share their experiences about what that means for them. In the mean time, you’ll have to hear from two of us who are fairly sexually integrated age players, but we’d like to think we cover the bases.

MAKO: I have my moments of being a sensual, or non-sexual age player too.

SPACEY: Sure. Being a sexual age player doesn’t imply that it’s all about the sex all the time.

MAKO: Right. (Laugh) It’s not like, diaper goes on and, “Stand by for orgasm!” Or that it’s like foreplay and a prelude to intercourse. Gloria Brame said very smartly, back in episode 4, that for some people, wearing the diaper is the sex. Sometimes it’s like that for me. I find that as an age player, I’m very, kinda non-goal oriented. I like doing what I’m doing and it doesn’t have to go anywhere else. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s ok.

SPACEY: yeah, I completely agree. I have the same kind of experience. Sometimes it really depends on where it seems like my mommy or my partner wants to take the scene too. I actually have sometimes gone into some age play with her and really not had any thoughts about sex or sexuality at the time. But, when she’s getting into it and she decides a diaper change is gonna be extra fun time…

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Ya know, far be it for me to complain too loudly about such a thing.

MAKO: Right. I mean, we are boys.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: I don’t know a single man who would ever go, “Gosh, a handjob? I don’t know.”

SPACEY: I don’t know, I’m sure there are plenty of men out there like that. But, I don’t think my brother and I…

MAKO: We’re not two of them!


SPACEY: So, it’s really interesting. For those of us who are comfortable involving sex, even for us it’s a floating line.

MAKO: Right. There’s no wrong or right to it.

SPACEY: Yeah, I don’t think you have to consider yourself a sexual age player or not a sexual age player, unless those terms just have meaning for you. I really think that those are terms of identity. And a lot of terms of identity like this, they’re not solid, they’re not super well-defined in my opinion. And really what they are are placeholders for a conversation with somebody.

MAKO: Exactly. I’m a really big believer, it’s a Taoist thing, that labels are a form of relative measurement. Like, this is tall because it’s not short. Right?

SPACEY: But put it next to the elephant, and it’s not.

MAKO: Right. So is pooping in your diaper sex? It can be. Is it penis in vagina intercourse? No, it’s not. But their both valid sexual, or non-sexual expressions depending on how you do them.

SPACEY: We’re not using the Bill Clinton version of the definition…

MAKO: (Laugh) Right!

SPACEY: “I never had sex with that woman!”

MAKO: Right. “Hold on while I light this cigar.”


MAKO: No I don’t smoke.

SPACEY: Yeah, nor do I.

MAKO: I’m totally down with you about the verbal humiliation. I love verbal humiliation! It’s funny, actually. One of the lines for me is, I love humiliation, especially erotic humiliation, can’t abide outright degredation. So like, you can tell me I’m naughty and that’s great. You can scold me for wetting my pants, and it’s a happy fun party time! But if you tell me I’m stupid, or that you’re gonna leave me because you think I’m terrible… That’s game over for me.

SPACEY: Right. It wouldn’t be game over for everybody, but those are buttons that you prefer not to have pushed.

MAKO: Right. And that’s an important point, Brother. Only you can really know what your buttons are and where your lines are. It’s not about anything that we say. It’s about what you discover for yourself.

SPACEY: So, what I’ll say is, use the term if it feels like it’s right for you, or don’t. And don’t worry about whether your sexual or non-sexual age player. Ultimately, you’re just you.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: Well we have another comment, and this one from an anonymous user who actually gave their name as “Anonymous” which I like. It makes it easy to decide if we can use their name on this show.

MAKO: I love Anonymous, he’s all over the internet! I see him everywhere! I’ll read this one. “Hi podcasters. I’m catching up on my podcasts, so if you’ve already answered this plese skip it, I’ll catch up. My question is, do you have suggestions for easing a very giving, but hesitant, even grossed out partner into age play that’s fulfilling for both of us? My wife wants badly to please me, but she isn’t drawn to age play and doesn’t get it. She doesn’t have the deep emotional needs for it that my former partner had. She’s told me that it’s a turnoff because she’s a mom. We have a very young child who still sleeps in diapers. And that she herself had a great upbringing and is very close to her father. So likes to call me Master or Sir, but has a really hard time saying ‘Daddy’. I don’t think it’s a lost cause, because she has some genuine childish or teenage attributes. She sleeps with a stuffed animal, loves anime, and is the shy naïve type who becomes very quiet and helpless when she’s submits sexually. It’s how she looks up at me with those big trusting eyes at those times that makes me feel like there’s a deeper Daddy-girl intimacy there, even if she doesn’t wanna color, to play with blocks or be treated like a baby. Right now our age play consists of her calling me Daddy some during sex, which is great, but I know she’s doing it for me. She’ll wear a childish dress for me sometimes. She’s put her hair up in pigtails, we have some great heartfelt cuddles. But trying to go straight to a diaper or pacifier seems risky. She’s already told me she’s afraid I’ll want to put her in a diaper. I foolishly promised I wouldn’t, but I wish I’d been more honest about how I think we could make it work for us both if we did just a little. Basically treating them like lingerie. I think she thought I wanted her to wear them 24/7. I’d be happy if she wore one for just a little while for cuddles and sex, but I can imagine her feeling fearful the whole time, not feeling the comfort and security that it’s about. In short, even if we negotiated some limits, I’m worried it’d harm our relationship. I’m wondering, do you have any suggestions on how to develop the Daddy-girl connection, or how to help her get it, or what kind of activities she could do as a middle, instead of a little to increase her comfort level with age play? I’m willing to think long-term. We do have an age play munch in town, and while I can see it going well, I can also see it being a setback. I think it’d be alright nurturing what we do already, but it’d be helpful if we could find any experience that she could get something out of.”

SPACEY: That’s deep. And a difficult situation for someone to find themselves in. There’s a lot to be thankful for here.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: And before we dive into this, let me just say that, I really don’t identify as a Daddy, although I take on that role with some folks.

MAKO: I can feel that a little bit more because in our family we’ve got Richard and Rachel and I’m often a big to them, and I feel that kind of big-to-little connection he’s talking about.

SPACEY: But they’re willing and ready partners in that respect. In this case it seems like it’s a little bit more give and take.

MAKO: Sure.

SPACEY: Sounds to me like something that you like to talk about from Dan Savage, the Good Giving and Game.

MAKO: I was just gonna say that.

SPACEY: Oh I’m shocked.


SPACEY: It sounds like she definitely wants you to be happy so she’s giving a little bit. And I hear that you have the same care for her, and I think that’s wonderful. And you guys should move on that.

MAKO: Yeah you’re already really far ahead of the game because you both care about each other and care about each other’s sexual happiness and fulfillment.

SPACEY: Indeed. So, things that I would first draw you to is, before maybe you’re as concerned about trying to get her to do the things you’re interested in…

MAKO: Do stuff for her.

SPACEY: Yeah, making sure you are addressing the things she’s interested in, exactly. Making sure you’re having those conversations. Finding out about her and her fantasies, which, for a lot of people can be tough to come out about, even to their closest partner. So don’t feel like you have to just say, “Ok, what are your fantasies? I’ll check them off the list.” That kind of thing.

MAKO: Right. I have a suggestion. It’s something I’ve done before. It’s something I’ve encouraged Brother to do.

SPACEY: Indeed. It’s the book.

MAKO: Yeah. Go to, well I was gonna say Borders but…

SPACEY: Yeah that won’t work. (Laugh)

MAKO: Go to a nice fancy bookstore and get one of those lovely, cloth-covered, blank notebooks that’s like a diary. Keep it in your bedroom or some central place in the house.

SPACEY: Furry cheetah-skin ones are particularly fun.

MAKO: Yeah! And what each of you should do is write to each other in that book. Whatever comes to mind. Fantasies that you have, fantasies you think the other person has, say things and do so as bravely as possible, without any fear. Make one of the rules of the book that you can’t be criticized for what you write in the book, you can’t be castigated for what’s written in the book, you can’t be some other C word for what’s written in the book…

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: That you can open up your heart and say whatever you want. And then later, not in your bedroom, not before sex, not during sex, maybe while you’re eating dinner, maybe while you go for a ride in the car, read to each other out of the book and talk about it. It’s never too late. There is no such thing. One thing I heard in your letter was, “First I said this, and now it’s too late!”

SPACEY: Yeah, I was just gonna hit on that. It’s never too late. You should always be continuing an open dialogue with your partner.

MAKO: That’s right. When it comes to sex and sex-related things the next best thing to doing those things is talking about them. It’s always good to talk about them.

SPACEY: It’s also important to remember that people’s tastes change over time. You may have said one thing at one point and now your interests have deepened. She may have said she feels one way about things at one point, and might find that her interests have changed slightly too.

MAKO: Right, I wanna touch on this diaper thing too. It’s funny, in years past, Brother has accused me of being very diaper-fixated. “Why is it always about the damn diaper?”

SPACEY: (Laugh) As this whole show has been!

MAKO: Right. It doesn’t have to be actually. And there are a lot of ways to get at the experiences you’re looking for from an odd angle. Ok. Here’s suggestion #1. How about, when she’s in her little girl space, and you’re going to spend time with her as a little girl, you get her special panties that she likes, but then, when you are dressing her in those panties, sprinkle some baby powder in them, and dress her. That replicates the experience of changing and dressing someone, it smells good. By the way, baby powder is an aphrodisiac, like, clinically it is. There’ve been studies about it, it’s one of the top 10 scents that turn people on. And, it’s a safe way to do it because there’s no expectation that she’s gonna wet herself, there’s no expectation she can’t change into a different pair of panties later, there’s no making her feel like she’s maybe portraying a younger roleplay age than she wants to.


MAKO: But it does slowly get that sensory thing going with you guys.

SPACEY: And you did talk about the panties, and panties can… There are different kinds of underwear that can be a stand-in for diapers in the mean time for you guys. Or maybe not even the mean time, just for always some thing that’s both interesting to you and to her. Go buy underwear together and look at what’s available, see what’s exciting. You might find something that’s maybe a little bigger and thicker than typical ladies’ underwear, and maybe that appeals to you.

MAKO: I know that on Ebay there are all of these clothing, AB clothing folks that make custom underoo-type things. I have some of them, and they’re adorable! So you could get her like, princess panties. And if you want to ratchet that up a little bit, you could get them to be thicker so that they’re like training pants. But of course, she’s a big little girl, so she doesn’t have to wet them. And she could wet them with things that are not pee. SPACEY: I’m gonna change it a little bit here, because at the end of the comment, he mentions that he has an age play munch in town but he’s a little concerned that that might be a setback. I think there’s an easy way to deal with that. Go attend the age play munch and see what it’s about and get a sense for yourself first. The other thing that you can do, and we’ve talked about this on shows past, if she’s curious but not really ready to go there yet, find out where the munch is taking place, go get a table somewhat close to it, but you don’t have to identify that you’re there for the munch or that you’re there to be with them.

MAKO: Right. And give her the choice. Maybe halfway through she might go, “That looks fun, let’s go over there.” Let it be about her. Put the control in her hands.

SPACEY: Exactly. So, let’s summarize that up because I think there are some excellent points there. The first one was make sure you’re looking after her needs. Talking to her. Continue the dialogue.

MAKO: There is no “done.” You’re not at some terminal spot where you can’t revisit things, renegotiate things, and enhance them.

SPACEY: #4 was baby powder! Yay! (Laugh) And then finally we talked about observing the munch. Either attending on your own to get a sense of what it’s about and decide whether that’s something that you guys can talk about later. And then there’s also, observing a munch even if you’re not going to be a part of the munch.

MAKO: Right. We don’t have anymore emails, but what we do have…

SPACEY: Oh I’m so excited about this too!

MAKO: Me too!

SPACEY: We have a caller!


MAKO: First time caller, long time listener. (Laugh)

SPACEY: If I had sound effects for some fireworks here you’d be hearing it. But, in the mean time, let’s hear this call by Baby Demon.

Baby Demon: Hi, this is Baby Demon from D-Diaper and Fetlife. You can go ahead and use this call on the show if you’d like. I just finished listening to the podcast about self-esteem and coming out. And I had one comment to make. I think it’s very important that you guys pointed out that there is a sharing boundary that people need to understand. Coming out, while it’s important for us to come out and be accepting of ourselves, we wanna make sure that when we do come out to people that we don’t over-share to them. Because that just makes everything awkward. Personally, I have a big thing with people sharing to their parents because, hey, what goes on in my parents’ bedroom is what they do. I don’t wanna know anything about that. And I hope they don’t wannna know anything about what goes on in my bedroom for that matter. But that’s just me. I also had kind of a question related to that. And that is, is it wrong to live two separate lives? I mean, I have a very vanilla life and then I have a very non-vanilla life when it comes to friends. And I typically don’t intermix those groups unless it’s with the kind of more normal kinky people and the more accepting. I’ve found over the years that the opposite ends don’t really like each other all that much. You get some weird looks and it just is a generally uncomfortable and not a good situation when you try to intermix the two. I was kinda curious about your thoughts around that. I guess this is kind of atwo-fold call because I have a secondary question unrelated to anything that you’ve talked about so far on the show. And that is kind of a personal issue for me. I have part of me that identifies with age play and part of me that there’s more of a diaper fetish kind of person. And the problem that I have and that I’m starting to find is that, I can’t seem to find the little headspace that everybody seems to talk about. The age play part of me wants to be more utilized, but all of a sudden my head will kick into this “No one should know about this!” super adult mode, and I just can’t let go to become a little. So I’m kinda wondering, is that a sign that my age play side is really more of a DL than a little? Or is it possible that my minimal exposure to age players in the real world could be hampering me? I’ve done a lot of talking to age players online and in chat, but never really experienced a munch or anything like that. So, that’s kinda my question. Thank you, bye!

SPACEY: So, thank you Baby Demon, for calling in. That’s huge, we just really appreciate that somebody used the voicemail line! And we wanna encourage other people to do it. Does it sound like we’re harping on this?

MAKO: Cuz we are! (Laugh)

SPACEY: Absolutely.

MAKO: Cuz it makes us happy!

SPACEY: Indeed. So, now that we’re happy, let’s talk a little bit about your comments here. So first you were talking about…

MAKO: oversharing.

SPACEY: What the boundaries were. So, I would agree.

MAKO: Completely.

SPACEY: I think it’s important to think about what your reasons are for sharing with somebody.

MAKO: And what you’ll get out of it.

SPACEY: Right. And that it’s going to be symmetric to some extent. We actually did, I think, somewhat address that, but maybe didn’t hit it hard enough in the last show. In that, really, the best time to share about these interests of ours is when it’s going to enhance your relationship with that other person.

MAKO: Right. And I think a really big part of that has to do with what the end goal is of the sharing. Like, and this is hard, hard advice, but it’s something I really feel strongly about. When you’re dating somebody, and you’re sort of just getting started, tell them. Tell them early.

SPACEY: One of the best decisions I ever made in my life was to do that with the person who became my first wife.

MAKO: Yeah. It’s something that I sort of stumbled across, because back in the dim ages of my life, before I’d made the decision to fully embrace who and what I am, I had these realationships where I dated people who maybe could be what I wanted them to be or needed to be, but I wasn’t open about it. I wasn’t honest about it. And so I kinda creeped around it, and it made my life so hard! And it made my relationship so awkward. I know that one of the big objections is, “Well what if I tell them, and they think I’m a freak?” Well, you know what? Better that they think you’re a freak, although honestly most won’t, a month in, when you haven’t commingled your hearts and your lives and your finances…

SPACEY: And your credit.

MAKO: Right! (Laugh) Than, three or four years down the line, when you’ve invested all this time. It’s that thing I said again during the self-esteem episode about how this is not a dress rehearsal. So even though it might be scary to come out, it’s worth it. But only if the payload, only if the payoff justifies the risks.

SPACEY: Indeed.

MAKO: A month into your relationship, yeah, it’s justified. There are tons of places where it’s just simply not appropriate. Partially because, you have to live a life of consensuality with the people around you. You’re nextdoor neighbors in the apartment building? They probably don’t need to know. Your rental office? They don’t need to know. Postal carrier, the guy at the bank…

SPACEY: And it’s not going to enhance your relationships with those people, which again, I think is the key there.

MAKO: Right, it probably would compromise them. And, I hear this from people all the time. “WOuldn’t it be great if I could openly dress like a baby everywhere I go! And everyone would treat me like a baby everywhere I go!” Ya know what? I think when you’re trying to deposit a check in the bank, it really wouldn’t be all that great. (Laugh)

SPACEY: I think it’s ok if not coming out, not living openly and honestly is gonna harm you more.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: Than making that decision to do it. I mean, there are some people who simply can’t deal with the disconnect that it would cause in their lives to try to pretend to be one thing and to feel like they are or believe they are another thing in their life.

MAKO: I’ve got examples for that. If you’re a parent, your kids don’t need to know, especially if they are your underage children. They definitely don’t need to know. As it turned out, my underage kid from my previous marriage did know, but that was because of, like, an emergency situation and I had to tell him. And I did so in a very discrete, age appropriate way, just to head off a custody problem. Otherwise I wouldn’t have said a word.

SPACEY: And I’m not a parent, so I really can’t add to that, but I’ve always thought that it’s about letting, when it comes to children, it’s about letting them come to you with the level that they want to know about and then being as appropriately honest as you can be at that point and time.

MAKO: I think that’s true of anyone that you have a longterm emotionally vested relationship with. Brother or sister, cousins, aunts, uncles, your mom or dad, whatever. If you feel like it’s in your way and you’re living a dishonest life, then maybe you should tell. But if you feel like it’s going to put you in some sort of jeopardy, compromise your education, compromise your safety, compromise your relationship… what’s the word I’m looking for… your reputation in a small town, yeah. Then, clam on up.

SPACEY: Right. Well, again, unless the pain of doing so is not gonna overwhelm you. I actually think this brings us into something that Brother and I were talking about recently, a person who’d been in the news and passed away not too long ago, unfortunately, Heidilynn.

MAKO: Heidilynn.

SPACEY: Heidilynn was a person who lived in Arizona I believe, it could be New Mexico, I’m not 100 percent on that.

MAKO: I think it was Arizona.

SPACEY: Who lived openly as an adult baby.

MAKO: Right, the news referred to him as “The Baby Man.”

SPACEY: Everybody knew about this person. And, I don’t actually have a problem with that. I think that what he did, or what she did, was choose to live her life as openly and honestly as she felt the calling to do so. And because she must’ve felt that the alternative wasn’t acceptable.

MAKO: I remember seeing… I never had the pleasure of meeting Heidilynn, I’ve always wanted too.

SPACEY: I haven’t either.

MAKO: But I remember some footage I saw, an interview that was done with her. One of the things that she talked about was that she was fully aware and prepared for consequences. There’s this story she told to this reporter about going into a bar, like a country and western bar, and ordering a beer, and asking them to put the beer in like, her sippy cup or bottle or whatever it was, and sitting at the bar and having this thing. And someone came over and was ready to beat her the hell up. And she said, “You probably don’t want to do that because I’m a blackbelt,” which she was, “And I can F up your shit if I really need to. How about instead, we just talk and I’ll tell you about this stuff, and you don’t have to be all weirded out by it?” And she ended up having an amazing conversation with the guy, who still thought she was freaky, but cool. SPACEY: Right. She defin itely had some advantages that let her live her life more honestly than a lot of us feel like we could do. She was financially well-off. She had a career in the theater prior to this and she made her money. So she didn’t have to work, she didn’t have to worry about being turned down for jobs and that kind of thing. A lot of people hold up Heidilynn as an example of what not to do.

MAKO: I disagree.

SPACEY: Yeah, I don’t agree with that at all. I think what Heidilynn is an example of is that you can live your life honestly…

MAKO: With integrity.

SPACEY: Right, if you are willing to give it the due consideration and are willing to accept the amount of work and consequences that are gonna come along with that.

MAKO: Now, having said that, those levels are different for every person.

SPACEY: Absolutely.

MAKO: Mako is my pen name, it’s not my real name. Although interestingly, it is the name I most think of myself as.

SPACEY: I have that too.

MAKO: Yeah. My wife calls me Mako, my girlfriend calls me Mako, most of my family calls me Mako. When people use my other name, it’s really weird for me.

SPACEY: Indeed. (Laugh)

MAKO: It’s like,the name I sign checks with. (Laugh)

SPACEY: It’s like, “Oh I kno this must be junkmail, because it’s not using Mako.”

MAKO: Right! (Laugh) Pretty much! So, I don’t think that there’s like a wrong or a right to this, there’s what’s right for you. And as Brother said before, very smartly, that is a sliding scale, it changes over time. When you first get started, this might be the deepest darkest most shameful secret in the world to you, and you might be terrified to talk to anyone about it.

SPACEY: Don’t be.

MAKO: Yeah. You don’t need to be. And I can almost guarantee you that months down the road you’d be surprised how quickly those big spectors will go away, and you’ll feel more comfy in your own skin. That’s kind of why we do this is to help you to do that thing.

SPACEY: I won’t lie, it helps me too. It helps, by doing this it helps me to examine my own life and try to make sure that I’m living it as honestly as I can be.

MAKO: Constantly, which actually, that kind of gets into the second part of Baby Demon’s first question. “Is it wrong to live two separate lives, like a vanilla one and a kink one?”

SPACEY: Right.

MAKO: There’s no “wrong.”

SPACEY: I was gonna say, the Taoist over here telling, “There is no right or wrong.” But he’s right, there is no right or wrong.

MAKO: I’m not right, it’s just factual.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Even that kinda sounds like I’m saying I’m right. (Laugh)

SPACEY: It just is.

MAKO: Yeah, it just is. You have to do what makes you comfy. Know what? At my job, there’s this pizza place around the corner from where I work. And I see this guy who sells really great pizza, probably about once a week or so. And he has no idea I’m an adult baby or a podcaster or a novelist or an advocate. He doesn’t know any of those things.

SPACEY: Or that you raise sharks in a small tank.

MAKO: That’s right, I love my shark tank! I just got it, it’s really awesome. But, he knows that I’m a runner. He knows I work nearby. And we talk and have very human conversations about running and exercising and the callories in pizza, and all that kind of stuff. Why? Because we’re both human beings with varied interests. It’s not that I’m hiding my diapers from him. When I tell him I want pizza with mushrooms, it’s not like, “Hey listen. I want pizza with mushrooms, and I wet my pants.”

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: That’s not gonna make the pizza with mushrooms any better. He just doesn’t need to know. If he happened to listen to the podcast and recognized my voice, and he said to me, “Hey, are you a podcaster about age play?” I’d probably say, “As a matter of fact I am.” But I don’t feel the need to trumpet it.

SPACEY: Exactly. So I think we’ve pretty much addressed that question. The next question he asked was about finding your little’s headspace and learning to let go. That’s a little harder. That’s a little more work. I think he specifically mentioned that he doesn’t understand if he’s and adult baby or DL, because he hasn’t necessarily found this regression headspace. Just like when we were talking about …

MAKO: It’s not quite so binary.

SPACEY: Yeah, just like when we were talking about non-sexual age play, there’s no, “This is what makes you an age player, and this isn’t.”

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: If wearing the diapers and the outfits is still fun and interesting to you even though you don’t necessarily have this alternate headspace…

MAKO: It’s good enough.

SPACEY: Great! Wonderful, enjoy it. It doesn’t make you a “DL” and there for you can only like diapers and not AB clothes or pacifiers or that kind of thing.

MAKO: Right. Now I will say that when I first got started with all this stuff, there were things that I did to sort of encourage my growth as a little, to nurture my alternate headspace. And I had certain triggers that would help me. These were very artificial things when I first got started. Like, I would laugh in a child-like way. Or, I would watch a kids movie and try to groove to it as a kid would.

SPACEY: I had this experience last weekend, we had the littles’ munch, and part of what we did was, cuz it’s spring and the weather was beautiful. We bought a bunch of kites and went out to a park. The wind wasn’t really there, but I didn’t care. I was gonna run and fly that kite. And as I wasn’t necessarily in any kind of little headspace when I started out, but as I ran with that kite and laughed about the fact that I couldn’t keep it in the air and kept running around and running around and running around, I fund the headspace.

MAKO: Dropped right out huh?


MAKO: I mean, that’s the way it works. Here’s the thing. People think that it’s some sort of mysterious, zen thing to get into this space. It really isn’t. The truth is that those same sort of feelings of joy and of throwing off of inhibitions, we still retain them as adults. Everyone, even people who are not excplicitly age players still have this thing. Ever see like, a flashy sports car go by, or a nice motorcycle and go, “Ooooh!” For a second, when you’re doing that, you’re not 30, you’re 12. Ya know, cars are neat! Watching professional sports can make you feel that way. Watching shoot ‘em up summer blockbuster movies like Transformers or superhero movies can make you feel that way. Watching a cartoon, reading a comic book. And it’s this sort of…

SPACEY: That’s right, looking at a sparkly dress coming down the aisle.

MAKO: Yeah!

SPACEY: Gotta have a girly thing in there, we were a little too butchy.

MAKO: (Laugh) Sorry. And that’s because, in all the littleness that I do, I just don’t have any girl parts, except the ones that are not in my body.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: Brother and Sister. And, Sister, take care of that for me.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: It’s actually really funny. I’ll confess, I have a pink floofy dress that I do wear sometimes. And I’ll call myself Kako when I’m doing it. But it’s really just pretending and play acting. It’s still fun.

SPACEY: Yeah, and he doesn’t like it, which makes it all the more fun to push his buttons about it. (Grins)

MAKO: Yeah. Miss Lemon, who I used to be in service to, she loved having me in that thing. The more I didn’t like it, the more she wanted me in it. But, we’re digressing.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: The thing about this is that, I think like anything else, there’s this thing that I say all the time about enlightenment in a Taoist context, which is that enlightenment is not a plateau you reach. It’s not something you are, it’s an act of will. It’s something that you do. And I think that being little is like that too. So, start off with, I don’t know, eating cookies for lunch one day, or allowing yourself to laugh like a child. The thing about learning to excentuate your little or nurture your little is, it’s work. It’s a process. And you start with small things like, allowing yourself to watch cartoons and see how it makes you feel. Then kind of follow the feeling. Do other things, experiment to get that feeling, and you’ll get there.

SPACEY: Right. Just because for some people that’s more integrated, more ingrained in their personality, doesn’t mean that somehow, it’s something you’re lacking.

MAKO: Definitely not. You don’t ever have to do it. The fact is, actually, you already have the key pivotal ingredient that you need to do it, which is that you want to do it. That you want to explore it. So you’re already more than halfway there. Trust me.

SPACEY: And don’t worry about the labels anymore, ok?

MAKO: yeah.

SPACEY: So, another thing that Brother and I wanted to talk about. We have a bunch of upcoming show ideas that we want to address. Wow. There are just a ton of ‘em! When we first started making these shows, I really thought we were gonna run out of topics really fast.

MAKO: Like soon. (Laugh)

SPACEY: I was like, “Hmm. Should we really do a weekly show when we maybe have like four shows in us in total?”

MAKO: (Laugh)

SPACEY: Yeah, that wasn’t the case. (Laugh) This is one thing that, as we explore, as we began looking at it, it just gets deeper and there’s just more and more and more to learn all the time.

MAKO: It seems almost bottomless really. Just to kinda get some of the stuff that we’re considering. So, adult nursing relationships / adult breastfeeding. Which, I only know, just a tiny little bit about. I’ve actually gotten to do it once. It was amazing.

SPACEY: So, here, this is an invitation. We’re gonna tell you about some shows we’re excited about. If this is something that you are super-totally geared up about, that you have just all kinds of great information that you know you have to get out there, we want you to come share it with us.

MAKO: Absolutely.

SPACEY: Write to us, H-O-S-T-S at Leave a comment on the…

MAKO: Call the show line.

SPACEY: yeah, call the show number.

MAKO: We love that!

SPACEY: It is great! We can get ya on here! We have ways of making you talk… on the podcast! (Laugh)

MAKO: And seriously, if you’re shy and uncomfortable, we’ll work with you. We’ll figure it out.

SPACEY: That’s right.

MAKO: There’s stuff we can do.

SPACEY: Right. We may not be able to get to everybody that wants to be on the show. We have to deal with schedules, we have jobs, we have other events that we go to. We have lives just like, hopefully, somewhat like everybody else.

MAKO: But we need your help.

SPACEY: Yeah, we really do. So, as we’re going through these, if you think “That’s me. That’s what I do! I have a lot of information I can share about that,” then we wanna talk to you.

MAKO: Let us know.

SPACEY: Maybe we can get ya on the show.

MAKO: So having said that, some of the stuff we’re interested in talking about. Adult nursing relationships for one, adult breastfeeding. Which we know barely anything about. It’s a topic we’d really like to wrap our mouths around.

SPACEY: Naaaah I saw that coming. (Laugh)

MAKO: Oh, yeah, that happened too.

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: It was good. I want to talk more about it. And the history of age play. Like, long before the internet and all this wonderful stuff, people were doing age play into the dim mists of time. Just like Cargo said about cave paintings for furries, right?

SPACEY: Prior to the internet, there was DPF. There was stuff prior to DPF with people meeting in basements and stuff on their own. Let’s talk about these things, let’s get the history of it.

MAKO: Right. Even infantilizing behavior in Victorian literature. I mean, it’s out there!

SPACEY: We totally want to talk about that.

MAKO: We also want to talk about transgender folks and their experience of age play and if the community’s welcome to them and how they feel about it.

SPACEY: There’s one that’s definitely near and dear to my heart. I have a little girl side, and I love that little girl side. And I wanna talk to other people who have little girl sides. Let’s talk about what it is to be a boily gir… a girly boy.

MAKO: (Laugh) Don’t know if I’ve heard the term boily girl before!

SPACEY: Yeah. Let’s talk about the intersection of age play and crossdressing. There’re girls who like to be tomboys and boys who like to be floofy little princesses, and it’s all good.

MAKO: Yep. Years ago, I had a friend who stumbled into diaper play because he was in a motorcycle accident and actually got like, some form of neuropathy and neuralgia down there, and was forced to use diapers. And he self-empowered by embracing age play and diaper fetishism. And I think that’s fascinating. I wanna talk about disibilities and age play and how they can compliment and support one another and turn what could be a negative into a positive. I know for a fact that on BBIF, the oldest mailing list for adult babies on the internet, it’s amazing, that there’s at least one if not more than one person on that list that’s visually impaired, that’s blind. And I’ve always wanted to talk to blind people about this! And to see how it is for them versus how it is for a sighted person.

SPACEY: And talking about a subject that can be somewhat difficult and that I’m starting to experience a little more as I get older, is talking about how age play changes for you, how your perceptions of age play change, how other perceptions of age play and you change as you get older.

MAKO: Right. And there’s definitely ageism in the community. I’ve gotten a lot of, “Oh, I don’t wanna look at that fat old guy in a diaper!” Um, but he’s an age player too, so yeah, you do. We want to talk to people about that.

SPACEY: Absolutely. Of course we’ve got to do the ever-echoing, ever-awesome, (Loud echoing sound effect), SUPER TOTAL REALLY AWESOME ALL-ABOUT-DIAPERS SHOW)!

MAKO: (Laugh) Right.

SPACEY: (Mimics echoing sound effect) Show, show, show... (Laugh)

MAKO: Because everyone wants it. (Laugh)

SPACEY: That’s right. So that will be coming. One of the things that Brother and I get questions on quite a bit is about our relationship and our relationship with our sister, which is something called polyamory. Something we somewhat stumbled upon. I don’t think it’s from what I have experienced with others is all that uncommon in the age play circles. And so we want to talk about how age play and polyamory intermix and what polyamory’s all about.

MAKO: We want to talk about the stuff, the clothing, the gear. What kind of things there are out there, and where you get it and what kind of stuff you have.

SPACEY: I’ve seen some pretty darn impressive stuff too. Wow!

MAKO: I know who you’re thinkin’ about. (Laugh)

SPACEY: Oh yeah. This person I’m actually thinking of actually, for a time, lent some of their stuff and didn’t even really miss it cuz they had so much stuff, to the museum of sex in New York, all about age play.

MAKO: So awesome.

SPACEY: Yeah, wow.

MAKO: We gotta talk to them and see if they’ll come on.

SPACEY: Which actually reminds me of a symmetric show that we’re interested in doing which is, when you do age play, you don’t necessarily need all this stuff.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: I do age play on a budget or even with no money because, do you really need money to be an age player?

MAKO: I don’t think you do.

SPACEY: I don’t think you do either. So we’ve kinda given that show away. (Laugh)

MAKO: Ah, two other symmetric shows. One show that’s been near and dear to my heart is, I’m gonna get a whole panel of women together to talk about what it means to be female and be a part of this community.

SPACEY: That’s right. We’ll also be getting the guys together to talk about the same kind of thing and what are the concerns that guys have had feeling in with themselves in the community.

MAKO: I think that’s everything on our list. Did I miss anything?

SPACEY: I think that’s a good starting point. I’m sure there’s plenty more out there. We’re certainly gonna be hitting a lot more topics and probably coming back to some topics. I have no doubt we’ll be doing another show on little furs and babyfurs for instance, because that was just a rollicking good time. There’s just so much more to share there.

MAKO: Oh yeah. And I’d like to mix and match some of our previous guests and get them talking to each other.

SPACEY: Exactly. Let’s do it. Let’s make that happen! Finally, on another topic, let’s round out something that we had started to work on, what, a month ago? Two months ago now?

MAKO: Yep.

SPACEY: We have this really awesome book by Miss Penny Barber.

MAKO: Yeah, The Age Play and Diaper Fetish Handbook.

SPACEY: The subtitle is: The Ultimate Guide to the World of AB/DL. And it’s by Penny Royal Press, which is AKA, Lulu.

MAKO: Right, which I’m familiar with because my book, Auntie Eva’s Border, when the other Ghidrah heads and I redid the book, we issued it through Lulu. Which we’re actually pretty happy with. They’re a print on demand company, which actually one of my first points that I’m surprised about about the book. I’m sorry brother, I’m going a little out of order.

SPACEY: Yeah you are. (Laugh)

MAKO: I’m really surprised there’s not an eBook version of this.

SPACEY: Right. Before we get into that, we have to let you know, I feel like it’s important to establish what are journalistic interest is in this. So, we both bought the book. We weren’t given copies of the book to review and to talk about here online to try to get you to buy the book.

MAKO: Right. Not at all.

SPACEY: We both paid for it out of our pockets and decided to read it because we thought it was something relevant and potentially important to folks that listen to our show. That said, we actually were surprised to find out that there are references to our own projects. The littles and baby pride symbol is mentioned.

MAKO: As is my book, Auntie Eva’s Border.

SPACEY: And our other project,, which is a site to support people hosting age play munches.

MAKO: We were really pleasantly surprised, but I want to emphasize, we were surprised to see it in there.

SPACEY: And we’re also acquainted with Penny Barber. She’s a follower on our Twitter account and somebody that we’ve both known about for a while. Haven’t really talked all that much directly, but occasionally from time to time. We definitely plan to have her on a future show.

MAKO: Yeah! Because there’s a number of topics that I want to talk to her about. Like, what it’s like to be a pro-mommy or to be a diaper fetish model, and the experience of being a girl and being an age player and getting into this. A lot of things. So, having said that, we’re not gonna guild the lily, we’re gonna give you our honest impressions about the book, many of which are good, some of which are not.

SPACEY: There’s always room for improvement in anything.

MAKO: Sure.

SPACEY: So we’ll be pointing that out too. So, let’s just get it right out of the gate. It’s already got two thumbs up.

MAKO: Yeah, we liked it. We think it’s great.

SPACEY: It’s an excellent book. I would say, it’s probably geared most specifically to people who are novice to intermediate adult babies in particular. When it says it’s the ultimate guide to the world of AB/DL, it’s…

MAKO: Pretty true! (Laugh)

SPACEY: It very much dives into ABDL.

MAKO: Older age play, not so much.

SPACEY: Yeah. And that’s probably one of our criticisms. Even though it refers to age play, and there are sections that talk about older forms of age play, overall it’s about diapers and adult babies and diapers and diapers and adult babies and diapers.

MAKO: Right.

SPACEY: That’s not necessarily a huge criticism because certainly where her experiences are.

MAKO: And that’s one of the things I want to say. I think that part of the reason why the book is that way is because of the nature of who Penny is. She’s one of us. She came into the fetishes the interests of age play through her relationship with a partner. She made it her own, and she’s embraced it wholeheartedly as part of her life, she’s a professional mommy, she’s an age play and diaper fetish model.

SPACEY: Right, both professionally and personally. She does age play on her own as well.

MAKO: Right, and you can tell. That is all over the book, which is a positive. The thing about the book is, it’s this mix of her experience, her opinions, and sort of this… I don’t know… Metacontent of acquired information about age play that comes from the internet and socializing and some literature and discussion. A lot of resources.

SPACEY: So, I mentioned this book is specifically for certain types of folks, the adult babies, but I also want to mention, it’s gonna be a really good book if you want to give it to a partner or somebody and share with them information about age play and about how to do certain things. There’s very much a lot of how-to information in this book that I think should open up a lot of great conversations.

MAKO: That was absolutely my favorite thing about the book. I intend to carry this book in my munch bag and write my name on the side so no one walks away with it. (Laugh) And show it to people at the munch to get them to open up and talk about awkward subjects. There’s a lot of bredth and depth in here of things to talk about.

SPACEY: I do want to address some criticisms here. One of the things that we mentioned that Penny Barber background is professional mommy and a professional age player. So I noticed a lot of the book talks about setting up what you might call fantasies more than anything.

MAKO: Sure.

SPACEY: Like, “Here’s how you do age play for a time. Then you’re done.” Wraps it up, you’re done. It doesn’t specifically say that, but the way that a lot of the items in here are couched is definitely about setting up fantasy and not about longterm lifestyle kinds of relationships.

MAKO: It’s implicit.

SPACEY: Right. So I think that maybe it could’ve done a better job of covering some of that.

MAKO: In volume two? (Laugh)

SPACEY: Indeed. Also, although it’s really thorough, she’s plain-spoken, but the language in places particularly using passive voice can be a little difficult to plod through.

MAKO: You might be surprised to hear Brother saying that, because I’m the one that’s like, the language cop.

SPACEY: And honestly I didn’t notice it when I first started reading, but then as I kept going into it it kinda kept flip-flopping back and forth.

MAKO: Right, “one does this,” “You may do that.” There’s no need for that.

SPACEY: That’s not a deal-breaker.

MAKO: Certainly not.

SPACEY: But certainly something to be aware of as you’re reading the book. Certain sections are gonna be harder to get through than others.

MAKO: Now having said that, there is some stuff in this book that is absolutely, hands down, pure gold!

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: For example…

SPACEY: Well, I don’t think I’ve found online or in print anywhere more information about diapers, from disposables to the cloth diapers, and how to do it and how to fold a cloth diaper, and what are the best ways to secure the tapes, and how much does baby powder help, and that kind of thing, as I’ve found in this book.

MAKO: How to put pins in soap so you don’t stick yourself. I mean, it’s amazing!

SPACEY: Right. Where you store the diapers when you’re done with them. How to avoid spreading disease when you handle the diapers appropriately. Definitely the most thorough work I’ve seen on that topic anywhere.

MAKO: Yeah. I can tell you that when we go to do the awesome mega ultra galactic universal diaper show, or whatever we’re calling it, I’m actually gonna come back to this and use it as a reference and a resource.

SPACEY: Absolutely. So, now we talked about something we really loved. I wanna backtrack and say that, there’s some stuff that I think could’ve been done a little bit better. There’s a section on negotiation, that was great. Negotiation is hugely important, and I see what she took in there. There’s a BDSM negotiation form that I’ve seen floating around the internet for ages and it’s clear that she’s cut down the most important parts that are related to age play, added lots of stuff of her own. It’s a great reference and a great resource for that kind of thing. I just think she missed an even better one.

MAKO: Yeah.

SPACEY: And I just don’t know if she didn’t know about it, or just didn’t feel the way that I feel about it, but, one of my favorite resources that was ever on the internet, and I’m really sad that it’s not out there in the cyberspaced, in this creator-created… Was a negotiation form created by Little Girl Lost. It was really the most detailed age play negotiation form, talking about what your interests in age play are, that I’ve seen anywhere. Fortunatley there are mirrors. My mommy has mirrored it on her blog, you can still find it on the Wayback Machine. We’ll probably have a link in the show notes.


SPACEY: Exactly. So, I would say, definitely look at that negotiation form, but also go find Little Girl Lost’s version because…

MAKO: It’s amazing.

SPACEY: You’re gonna find some depth there that this form, which talks about practices didn’t get into as much detail as the other, which talks about interests and emotional states.

MAKO: I mean, great effort, but there’s better out there.

SPACEY: Indeed.

MAKO: Another thing, and this is a little hard to talk about, is that… One of the things that I see is that a lot of what she says in the book is a mixture of both her opinion and stuff from elsewhere on the internet, which, to some degree, she attributes, but I think she missed a couple. It’s not plagiarism. Let me state that. What I think is, so much of these concepts are so large and so well-known and so talked about in modern age play, that it’s easy to roll them up into your own Gestalt experience and not recognize that they need attribution, but they do. For one, some articles that Brother wrote. For another, Lee Harrington’s writings, specifically the stuff about roles and archetypes.

SPACEY: And there’s certainly, there’s no verbatim copying in here or anything like that.

MAKO: No no, not at all.

SPACEY: But you can see the bones, you can see the bones of those original works.

MAKO: Right. What I think is, people say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Well, this is clearly flattery. Really wonderful flattery. It’s just unattributed flattery. And I think that I’d be doing all of you and her a disservice if I didn’t mention it.


MAKO: Now having said that, because that was my biggest negative, one of my biggest positives in this book is that she is unabashedly, unafraid to address the issue of sexuality and age play. She does it fairly, she’s even-handed about it. It’s not gratuitous titillation, although there are things that are titillating that she says in the book.

SPACEY: And there are pictures. (Laugh)

MAKO: Yes. Of her in diapers, there’s no outright nudity. But… she just sold 50 more books because of that.

SPACEY: (Laugh) They’re also on her website.

MAKO: But it’s great. She’s unafraid to tackle this subject and she does so in a way that I think is fair to both sexual and non-sexual age players.

SPACEY: Amazingly well done. She definitely took into account non-sexual age players, but, she left the dirty stuff in which, I kinda like a lot! (Grin)

MAKO: Me too! (Laugh)

SPACEY: So that said, there were a couple other things that kinda struck me as odd. When she goes into that section of roles and archetypes and she talks a lot about care-takers, but she for some reason feels the need to classify care-takers into masculine and feminine roles. I don’t think that was necessary. She does point out that the roles that she describes are not uniquely masculine or uniquely feminine, but I don’t even think they need the labels.

MAKO: Right. I think that the problem with the labels is, that if someone’s not reading carefully, they can miss that little proviso that she said and go, “Oh, these are for men, and these are for women.” And I think that’s a little irresponsible. The one that really jumped out at me was the thing about the creepy uncle. There are creepy aunts. I’m a big fan of the creepy aunt! I like when the creepy aunt watches me and…

SPACEY: Auntie Eva’s Border!

 MAKO: Well yes. I mean, that’s why she’s an auntie, it’s true! 

SPACEY: (Laugh)

MAKO: I just think that was off.

SPACEY: And then I had a, I hope, a very unique problem in my own copy. The book is self-published through Lulu, and one of the problems with that is occasionally Lulu has little glitches in their printing process. Everything’s print on demand before they send it out to you. So, I was kind of sad to see that the illustration of the littles’ and baby pride symbol in my book was horked up. Fortunately Brother’s came out just fine.

MAKO: Right. Which, and I want to say, and again, Auntie Eva’s Border’s published by them too so I’m not entirely without my own interests here. Lulu’s fine. They’re really good about this. I can tell you in the, what, six plus years I think now? That Auntie Eva’s Border’s been available through Lulu, I’ve never heard of anybody, nobody’s written to me and said they got a bum copy. Not ever. And I know for a fact that if you do get a bum copy, you can call them and they’ll do something about it.

SPACEY: Right. I also had a printing error on page 57 that I think Brother had as well.

MAKO: Yep.

SPACEY: A little place where the text just sort of ran off the page.

MAKO: Yeah, it happens. That’s the nature of print on demand. One thing that I was really kinda stunned by is that Lulu, they offer books in electronic form, my book’s in electronic form. I’m stunned that this isn’t for a number of different reasons.

SPACEY: Personally I read electronic media a lot more than I read physical media nowadays.

MAKO: Right, and you can have it your hot little hands in five seconds.

SPACEY: That’s right, as opposed to this book that I had to send away for and wait almost a week and a half when I paid for expedited shipping.

MAKO: When you’re an age player and you really wanna see Penny in her diaper and read about diaper-folding, a week and a half is forever!

SPACEY: “I want it now!” (Laugh)

MAKO: And also, this is me talking directly to you, Penny, about this. I think you’re doing yourself a disservice not having it electronically. I can tell you that in the six years that Auntie Eva’s Border’s been out there, something like 76 percent of my book sales are electronic sales. It’s cheaper and it’s more discrete for people. They just like it better.

SPACEY: That’s right. As you were saying and as you said to me before, when you have an electronic book, you can read your smut on the train to work. And nobody knows what you’re reading.

MAKO: Know what? I have a funny story about that. On the way home tonight, I was on the Metro reading Penny’s book assembling my talking points about it, and there was a guy next to me and he was really wigged out by this book. He looked over and he kept kinda giving me the hairy-eyeball. It fell open to a page that had a picture of her in a diaper, and after that, he got up and he moved away from me! (Laugh)

SPACEY: You and your hairy-eyeball stories. (Laugh)

MAKO: Yeah. I’m not gonna lie. It was funny to me. But it drove home the point why, I really think there should be an eBook version of this.

SPACEY: Absolutely. So, one last thing I want to point out, and I think this is actually a really good aspect of the book. There’s a companion website for it. So, there’s information that can be updated in the companion website. You can get the negotiation form that she’s provided on the website. You can see some of the pictures in color. (Grin)

MAKO: Right. It’s room to grow is what it is.

SPACEY: Absolutely. So, I think that’s a really great addition.

MAKO: Overall, yeah, we give it our big little recommendation.

SPACEY: That’s right. The Big Little Podcast says the Age Play and Diaper Fetish Handbook…

MAKO: Thumbs up!

SPACEY: Thumbs up! Two diapers up!


MAKO: I don’t know if two diapers up is a good thing.


SPACEY: Depends on the circumstances. Alright. Well I think that’ll do it for our show today. Thanks again. As I’ve said before, we just wanna thank you, the audience for listening. It’s absolutely huge. If you’d like to get in contact with us about anything we’ve talked about today, if you have your own comments, if you completely disagree with anything we’ve said, come disagree with us! That’s awesome! We wanna talk to you about that.

MAKO: How can they do that, Brother?

SPACEY: They can write to us. Hosts, H-O-S-T-S at They can leave a comment on our blog, They can find us on Fetlife. We have a Fetlife group there, it’s appropriately named The Big Little Podcast.

MAKO: SHOWNOTES! I’m gonna link it.

SPACEY: Hooray! We also have a Twitter feed. Our Twitter ID is @biglittlepdcast. Yeah, apparently our Big Little Podcast name was a little bit too big little for Twitter, so we had to shorten it down a little.

MAKO: And lastly…

SPACEY: And lastly, our favorite, we got to use it today, was so exciting, the voicemail! What’s that voicemail number?

MAKO: That number’s 678-421-4256. If you do call in, please be sure to let us know it’s ok to use it on the show, like Baby Demon did.

SPACEY: Hooray! So thanks again for listening and we’ll talk to you again soon! Bye!

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