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Released March 27, 2011
Hosts: Spacey, Mako
Guests: Mae, Ms. Jessica
Transcribed by PandaPet.
Mae: You’re listening to the Big Little Podcast – a show by, about, and for ageplayers of all kinds. We expect our audience to be mature, consenting adults because sometimes the topics on our show are pretty adult, too. Just like you! If you’re under 18 and are looking for upfront advice about sex, please visit scarletteen.com.
Spacey: You’re listening to the Big Little Podcast – a show by, about, and for ageplayers of all kinds and you’re listening to
Mako: Mako, that’s me! And my brother
Spacey: Spacey, that’s me! And we have a couple of special guests today. And they are special because they’re here to talk about our topic, which I don’t think by ourselves we could cover quite as well.
Mako: Because we’re not dominant mommies.
Spacey: Dommie Mommies.
Spacey: Alright, so I’m going to introduce the one who’s sitting next to me.
Mae: I’m Mae, or DarklingMae on FetLife.
Spacey: And-and my Mommy and she’s awesome. (Mae cheers)
Mako: I love her. And not next to me, but remotely next to me, I guess is Miss Jessica.
Jess: MJ5 on FetLife.
Mako: Who I have a big, big crush on. (laughter)
Jess: And know the universe knows.
Mako: Oh, the universe already knew. (laughter)
Spacey: Very good, very good! Well, you know, we didn’t prepare special questions or anything like that because we figured that the people who do the Domme, that the Dominant Women in ageplay kind of thing, might have a direction that they would want to take things.
Mako: Yeah, tell us what to do, you guys! (laughter)
Jess: Alright, I would like to talk about the dirty side of things. (Mako cheers)
Mae: Oh, just jump right into it!
Jess: I totally do.
Mae: Like mud puddles!
Jess: Only because I know that it can be very taboo and you know not a lot of people like to talk about it out loud, but I think a lot of us have feelings around it, so…(agreeing murmurs)
Mae: Sounds good.
Spacey: I don’t know, you think that’s appropriate for this podcast, brother?
Mako: I do.
Jess: Who better than to break the ice but dominant Mommies, you know?
Jess: Absolutely feel that way.
Spacey: Very good. So I would be curious to hear kind of how you got your start in this.
Jess: Actually, my start came along with a little girl named Peanut.
Spacey: I feel like we’ve heard that name before…Oh yes, Episode 3!
Mako: That’s right.
Jess: Previous podcaster! She came into my life like a force to be reckoned with, and I had already had very strong maternal instincts. I’ve always been a mother hen, so when I met her it opened up this place in my heart and also in, you know, my sex life for someone who identified as a little. And of course I did my homework and I researched everything, but nothing can really trump the physical response I had to her. Like I remember like it was yesterday her crawling on my lap and us talking to each other, very maternally, me rubbing her, and her slipping her hand down my pants and telling me “I love you, Mommy” and cumming (Mako: Wow.) really quickly, and thinking to myself you can’t really deny that.
Spacey: That is a nice positive feedback cycle right there.
Jess: Yeah, that’s kind of what locked it in for me.
Mako: We just got like 50 more subscribers like right now.
Spacey: We had talked about adding erotica to the podcast, but I don’t think we need to.
Mako: We’re doing good!
Jess: Yea you know, there’s a way that everybody gets opened up to things. And, you know, we are trained in our head not to see, you know, things to do with children as erotic but as consenting adults in a big and little scenario, it’s really hot.
Spacey: No argument from me.
Mako: That’s actually something I want to talk about and sort of deconstruct a little bit. I’m a dirty ageplayer myself, no surprise there, and one of the things that I first had to sort of wrap my head around when I decided that I was going to do this stuff was understanding exactly what it was that I found erotic. Go ahead, brother, cue eye roll. It’s certainly not real kids, because yuck, eroticizing children is gross.
Mako: It’s the being childlike, though, I think. Like that sense of nurturing and care, right?
Spacey: Well, and playing on the taboo. The fact that it’s gross is to some extent the attraction to the adult consensual version.
Mako: Right. “I couldn’t do this then, but look what I can do now, because I’m a grown up!”
Jess: Right, and honestly it fulfilled a need in me at the time. I was attempting to have a child; aggressively attempting to have a child and failing and…I had all this maternal love to give to someone and this nurturing all of this built up, and it needed to find a healthy outlet.
Mako: Right. I think that’s really wise. You know, I remember this thing that a therapist said to me many years ago about how, you know, sex things and fetish things have these three purposes, right? And one of them is a release of emotional tensions and I think that this does speak to that.
Mae: One of the things that I’ve – one of the differences that I’ve noticed is that for some people they’re into what they’d call Mommy/son play or Mommy/daughter play, and for them it’s very much about the “I’m the parent, you’re the child, and this is sexual.” Where for other people they’re into Mommy/girl or Mommy/boy play, and for them it’s less about the biological connection and more about the nurturing energy and the playful energy. And I think that’s one of the reasons why the term “little” became so popular – because people were talking about “Well, I’m not a son or a daughter, but I’m a little girl or a little boy.”
Mako: Oh yeah, I see what you’re saying.
Mae: That’s really when the term “little” really began to take off, is because people really wanted this distinction between sexual play that’s specifically incest and sexual ageplay that may or may not include that dynamic.
Spacey: How interesting.
Mako: That’s really smart. It’s funny, I remember back when I was writing “Auntie Eva’s Boarder.” One of the reasons why the dominant female character in “Auntie Eva’s Boarder” is his Auntie is because that Mommy word is so loaded. Some people are like “Ew, Mommy! No! That’s awful, don’t say that!” But no one has ever come to me and said “You can’t say a sexy Auntie. I won’t buy your book/your book sucked because there was a sexy Auntie in it.”
Jess: No, I like that too, because it’s more innocuous. Like I am not every little’s Mommy –
Spacey: Thank goodness!
Jess: I am a Mommy to very specific people. But I can be a Big to people that I’m casually involved with. You know, I can be a Big for someone for a play date. So I think that that makes it a little more user-friendly, so to speak.
Mae: Yeah, for many people I think Mommy/boy or Mommy/girl in some cases implies more of a committed relationship where I think people are usually drawn to other terms if it’s more casual.
Mako: Like babysitter?
Mae: Yeah, babysitter.
Spacey: (to Mae) It does remind me earlier on in our dating, I didn’t refer to you as Mommy. That’s something we worked into over time.
Mae: It’s one of the reasons why I have the nickname “The Pretty Lady” – that’s one of the names my boy calls me when we’re not in places when “Mommy” would be acceptable.
Spacey: Plus, she’s a pretty lady, so –
Mako: Oh, so pretty. I’m biased, but yeah. You know, it is a powerful and loaded term, too. I know that like…a couple years back, I had this friend that was a dominant woman who wanted to play with me when I was little and she referred to herself as Mommy very casually, and it completely kind of ticked me off. Because I was like – it’s a name and a role, and it’s kind of an earned thing, you know? And I’m like “You can’t just snap your fingers and say you’re my Mommy. That is not a good thing.”
Spacey: Well and of course that will depend on the players, like anything else. For some people that could be a casual role.
Spacey: For some of us who, I guess, who feel like we’re more invested in the terms and in the identity of the thing -
Mako: And who obsess over words, yeah, I know.
Spacey: Then of course it’s a bigger deal. And, you know, that should all come out in the negotiation.
Mako: Yeah. See Episode 2.
Jess: Also, the terms “Big” and “little” also don’t limit you to an age range, either.
Mae: Yes, it can be all ages.
Jess: A Big could be, you know, the 18 year old with the 13 year old. A Big could be a 50 year old with the 8 year old. It doesn’t necessarily put an age bracket on your play, it just means that this is supposedly “We’re acting as the older person.” You know what I mean?
Spacey: Right, the terms equally fit the janitor and the cheerleader as well as the Mommy and the baby.
Jess: Oh, I love the janitor. (all laugh, agree) That’s a good one.
Mae: The janitor can also be, you know, the handyman, the pizza delivery guy, the general, like, “knock on the door” pornstar…
Spacey: The pizza delivery guy? Exactly, I mean, the music has to start right there.
Mako: (the international sex innuendo) Bow chika bow bow.
Mae: The cable guy comes to fix your box…
Spacey: I’m gonna have to look through my collection to see if I have any porn music.
Mako: Oh my god, actually, you know what? I have to tell you guys this joke about that. It’s something that Peanut’s actual brother told me – do you know what the two dirtiest animals are in the farm?
Spacey: I do. May I?
Mako: Yes, please.
Spacey: Brown chicken, brown cow. (all laugh)
Mae: I love that joke.
Jess: Oh my god! You realize I’m totally gonna tell my real children that they can say it – cuz I just think it would be so funny to hear them go -
Spacey: That’s right. Totally over their head, but what the heck?
Jess: Exactly. Doesn’t matter.
Mako: Actually, that leads to an interesting discussion. Which is – I know you said that you had gotten into ageplay back before you had actual “bio” kids. I remember you had told me a while back that you went kind of away from ageplay for a while, and had to learn to come back to it after that, right?
Jess: I did, I did. I think that it’s a big enough step to break away from what you’re taught your whole life and society wise to enter into ageplay to begin with.
Jess: But then in my situation, it took me seven years to conceive my son. And when he got here, he kind of threw a wrench into how I looked at ageplay. First of all, because my world revolved around him, so there wasn’t much space or time for anything else.
Spacey: Sure, of course.
Jess: But along with that came all these feelings of “Oh my god, does this make how I’ve been feeling wrong?” Because there were very similar things that I did with – at the time it was Peanut - that you find yourself doing. There was also Kevin in the mix who I played with casually, who is more along the adult baby line, so I was directly doing things with Kevin that were in relation to what I was at home doing with my son.
Jess: So it was safest for me to take a step back and to do my work quietly in my head. And it was a lot of deprogramming, honestly. And a lot of reinforcing in myself that this is the decision I’m making as an adult – that what I do in my bedroom doesn’t come out of my bedroom and doesn’t affect my relationship or my standings with my son. But even when I came back to it after I had been away it still took me a little bit more of a bump to be sexual with a little.
Mako: Right. It’s a complicated thing to wrap your head around, that’s for sure. I think that it’s an issue that makes people get weird. The processing is interesting .
Spacey: I’d be curious to see – did you find yourself reevaluating your other kink interests as well?
Jess: Mildly, but not as much as I struggled with the ageplay, honestly. There were definitely things I’ve done in my life that have been like “Oh my goodness,” like the first time that I took Jason out to unconsciousness. I’m like “Oh my god, what did I just do? This is my husband.” You have that moment of panic. I never really had that around any other kind of play when my son was born, but I think as we move into different stages of our lives we reevaluate a lot anyway –
Jess: So this was just a little more under the microscope for me than other things.
Jess: Obviously, I’m back on board.
Mako: With a passion, yeah. It’s fascinating to me to because brother and I know Jess really well. We all go to Camp Crucible, I’m very close friends with Peanut, and I’ve been close friends with Jess and her family for a long time. One of the things that kinda whaps me upside the head with a (sound effect) stick a little bit is that she’s very maternal. I mean, not just with her kids, but everybody. There are ways I hear her speak and act that are very innocently, casually maternal and somewhat strict that really push my buttons. I’ll have this moment of “Wait a minute, I’m turning a Mommy thing, like a bio Mommy thing, into an ageplay thing for me.” And I kind of go “Is that ok?” I think I ask you like once a week “Is that ok?” at least once a week over text or something.
Jess: (laughs) It’s true.
Spacey: That’s interesting, I guess it would depend on how you responded to it. I hate to be the person to ask that question, but I think it depends on how you respond to it, right? I don’t think you can fault a person for their thoughts -
Spacey: Or for sexualizing something out in their environment. You know, if somebody is really into pantyhose and they see a woman walking down the street with pantyhose with the little nylon seam up the back and that does something for them -
Mako: That’s kind of hot, actually.
Spacey: Then it’s going to do something for them! And it’s not really anybody’s right to question whether that’s ok. It’s their actions are what they are responsible for, not their thoughts.
Mako: Right. There’s a term or this – it’s called sexual agency. What you feel is never wrong. How you act on what you feel is a moral decision. Sexual agency is your ability to make that choice.
Jess: As long as you’re self policing, I think that…You know, because I could very much potentially react to my biological children in a way that I would relate to a little. I mean, sometimes they are very similar.
Mae: I think that one of the reasons why ageplay is so difficult for people is that they have a background with having parents and having children and having brothers and sisters, where people don’t grow up with masters and slaves. So they don’t have that background or that charge.
Spacey: Everybody’s got parents.
Mae: Yeah, yeah.
Mako: Right. So suddenly we’re spinning this thing that everyone had 90 degrees, and it’s a moment of “whoops!”, right?
Jess: Absolutely. And other people didn’t have dominant parents, some people had very passive parents.
Mae: Or negligent parents, or uninvolved, or drama…
Mako: You know, that’s interesting too, because we all have this friend Bethy who have these wonderful bumper stickers that say “It’s never too late to have a happy childhood.” And I think that a lot of littles –that a lot of us -try to maybe relive and amp up things that were great from our childhood or maybe rewrite things that were not so great. I know for myself I was very type A, success oriented, academically focused, nerd who was very success driven and kind of a little grown up. Most of my friends growing up were a little bit older than me if not actual grown ups.
Spacey: I would be surprised by this, but we’re the same person.
Mako: Just the same. You know, I can’t tell you the number of times brother and I have laid together in our diapers and had philosophical talks about religion and knowledge and how we learn things…we’re little dorks!
Spacey: I’ve got to change the website again, thanks.
Mako: Yeah…I know that a big part of my being little is I love being silly and nonsensical and crazy because I didn’t get to do enough of it, you know? I bet that’s true for you guys as bigs, too, right?
Jess: I feel like I got a head start at being a good mom because of my involvement with ageplay. I got to, for all intents and purposes, practice all the things I felt inside, get down on my knees and color, and get back to all the fun stuff that I got away from that having children in your life brings you back to that place. It was definitely a refresher course for me. It was also nice, too, because it gave me an idea of how I was going to structure my discipline for my kids in a way, too.
Mako: Hm, that’s interesting. I’ve never made my connection, honestly.
Mae: One of the things I identify with is a more of a tween because it allows me to access some energies that are young, and playful and fun, and silly, but also some energies that are very sexy, and assertive and are charming, and merge those. I think for a lot of Bigs, they might enjoy the same things as the littles, but they enjoy them from a more vicarious, just outside type of way.
Mako: Right, that makes a lot of sense to me. Oh you know what? This is also a good opportunity for me to…There’s a term, that as far as I know, Marie invented this term, so I’m giving her the credit right here right now.
Jess: Middles and mediums!
Mako: Right, middles! You’re not a big, you’re not a little, you’re kind of both, so you’re a middle!
Jess: Or a medium.
Mako: Yeah! Which I think is frickin brilliant! I know thatwhen I started out, I was very little and little was my deal. But I love taking care of other littles, and I feel kind of like a semi-grown up when I’m doing it, and it feels good! It’s also interesting and nice in our own family to see this. We have two littles that we take care of who we refer to as “the kids,” Richard and Rachel. They’ll come over I’ll check her diaper and then one of my Mommies will check my diaper. So it’s like you can see the power rolling downhill or something.
Jess: Nice. It always rolls downhill.
Spacey: So I guess another question that I’d like to talk about since we’re talking about female dominance is maybe to talk about the contrast of it. How is female dominance contrast against male dominance in an ageplay scenario? Have you thought about how your energy is different of how that applies different?
Mae: Well in general, one thing I’ve noticed, especially with Daddy types there’s kind of a stereoptye…not even a stereotype, but it’s generally accepted that when they’re Daddy types, especially if they’re called Daddies, they can be sadists, they can be guides, mentors, nurturing disciplinarians. But I’ve noticed that the term Mommy…there’s a specific association with adult babies, especially from outside the ageplay community, where inside the ageplay community it’s more accepted that Mommies or female dominants in the ageplay community can be whatever they want to be. But I think from an outsider’s point of view, most people associate Mommy with that young, very dependent age.
Spacey: Typically adult babies.
Mae: Yeah, typically adult babies. And I’ve also noticed that many people…They see Daddy as more sexy and taboo where many people also perceive Mommies as sacred and taboo. So the taboo that’s there is different, at least for the people who have spoken to me about it when I’ve talked to them about Daddy/girl and Mommy/girl.
Mako: That’s really interesting. I would wonder…I have a question, listeners. For those of you out there that are non-sexual ageplayers, who are you more comfortable as your big in a non-sexual way, a Mommy or a Daddy?
Spacey: Or does it matter?
Mako: Yeah, does it matter? And you can call in and let us know at our voicemail line – 678-421-4256. Yeah I’ve got it in front of me now, haha!
Spacey: That’s right. And you can also write to us at email@example.com
Mako: H-o-s-t-s, because there’s two of us.
Mae: My experience in speaking to people about ageplay and Daddy and Mommy is that there are many people who associate Mommy with being more asexual. But I think that’s more…Not everybody who’s into Mommy/Daddy identifies as an ageplayer, so some of these people I may be talking to are people who identify with Mommies and Daddies outside of ageplay. I think that’s it’s own podcast – how ageplay interacts with other facets and other lifestyles that are on the perimeter.
Mako: Right, because Jess –I know you’ve been really involved in the leather community as a whole. Aren’t you a leather Mommy, too?
Jess: Well I’m the matriarch of my leather family, so absolutely. But when Spacey originally asked that question, the first thing that popped into my head was Peanut saying “Daddies are pushovers” –
Mae: Oh, ok!!!
Jess: In a way that they love them so much that they lack the ability to say no, they lack the ability to hurt them. But Mommies…
Mako: You don’t mess with Mommy.
Mae: It’s funny, I’ve also heard the opposite stereotype.
Jess: That’s what popped into my head immediately when Spacey asked that because my relationship after Peanut was then with JC, and the dynamic I shared with him as my little boy and Mommy was quite different than Peanut. So I had back to back relationships that were vastly different.
Spacey: It’s also very funny given what Peanut said about her Daddy on the last show.
Jess: It’s funny because to this day, when I was down there visiting her, we’ll sit at the table. And she’ll say something and look at Daddy and bat her eyes, and then she looks at me and she goes “I know.”
Mako: I just saw that, actually!
Jess: I know, it’s to this day! That also speaks to how wonderful my relationship was with her. It’s no secret to everyone that we were estranged for a while, and that was really difficult for me from the perspective of someone who was her Mommy, and she is in my leather family, and I was in love with her. And when we came back together and when we found our way back to each other, that connection is still there.
Jess: And I don’t ever feel as though there’s any amount of time or potential thing that could happen to us that would break that.
Mako: You know, it’s funny, because Peanut was talking about that in the last show. There’s this thing she said that made us all kind of have this moment of “woah” about how as littles, our bigs really are raising us.
Spacey: That connection and that bond never goes away.
Jess: I see stuff in her that I take pride in because I know I put that there. I planted that seed. What she did with it from there was absolutely her doing, but I planted that seed as her Mommy and her dominant.
Mako: I remember when I first met you, I was in service to another couple, the Lemons – Miss Lemon and Mister Rob. We went to this perogie restaurant in Balitmore, remember? I remember one of the things Miss Lemon said to me, she was very particular about this, she said “Mind your manners. Don’t chew with your mouth open and have good table manners, because Miss Jessica is very strict and she will call you out on it in a way that you won’t like.” It’s true, right?
Jess: It’s true! Absolutely.
Spacey: Oh, to have a reputation.
Mako: It’s so funny. We went up to Peanut’s house the other day and had dinner with her, and I totally was subconsciously minding my table manners in front of her, I know I was doing it.
Jess: (laughs a lot) Very good, Mako.
Mae: I have a question for Miss Jess – as someone who has played with both girls and boys and been a Big to both to different degrees, what would you say that the differences are for you between boy littles and girl littles? This includes like JC and Peanut, as well, of course.
Jess: I think my relationship with Peanut went a lot deeper. The bulk of who we was around me being her Mommy and her being my little girl, whereas the bulk of my relationship with JC was our D/s dynamic. So that was definitely a huge difference, there. I find that the boys in my life are much more sweet talkers – Mako.
Jess: Much less shy. I find that the girls are a little more shy with me, the boys a little more bold. I don’t necessarily prefer one over the other. I think that I got a great amount of equal love and adoration and all those things. I think that my relationship with Peanut, that we have the connection that we did, because so much of who we were was based on that.
Spacey: One other thing I’d be curious about, because you’ve played not only along gender lines but sex lines, and you mentioned that boys tend to be this way and girls tend to be that way. Do you find that’s true along sex linesa s well as gender identity? For instance, a male identified female, or the other way around?
Jess: I’d have to say that my only interaction with a little around that would be Kitty. And she pretty much sticks with the shy girl, wants to be very good and pleasing. So I don’t have a whole lot of experience to speak to, honestly, in reference to that. I’ve played with some littles who identify as genderqueer, which is neither here nor there, and that is what it is. They could identify as a rocket ship or a groundhog, it really doesn’t matter.
Mako: Or a sharkboy, yeah. (I think I could hear him blushing)
Jess: And that’s just as cool and it’s its own experience in itself.
Spacey: By the way, I think Sharkboy by its name is gender identified.
Mae: Shark critter!
Mako: Hey I like panties, mine or other people’s…especially Miss Jessica’s. The thing I think is really interesting, too, about ageplay, is that I find that ageplay is very welcoming, and sort of melting, and soft, and open and forgiving. I find it to be the case that when people come to the munch and are of one gender but of a different sex and say “I’m this” we all say “Ok!” and it’s irrelevant. We see what they want us to see and we interact with them in the way they want to be interacted with. Which is also, I think, why ageplayers and ponies get along so well. I have this good friend who is a little girl and is also a pony. She’s like a My Little Pony – she’s like really a little and a pony! What would that be, a filly? I don’t know.
Spacey: Pony’s ok.
Mako: And she’s a pony! I talk to her and she’s a pony. It’s very clear that when I talk to her, she’s a pony.
Spacey: I think that’s very much a “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” kind of thing. You want to be seen as a kid? You offer that respect right back.
Mako: I think that’s true.
Jess: Absolutely. There are some days when my biological son and says “Today I’m going to be a stegosaurus.” (one of the boys growls) There are days when you wake up and feel a certain kind of way, and it’s good to have people that welcome that.
Spacey: Indeed. Yeah, I can’t imagine making that announcement in my office.
Jess: You never know, there could secretly be a guy in the cubicle that totally agrees with you.
Mako: That’s right, you could be like a meeting-a-saurus. (laughter) That’s awesome. Do you find that your experiences…it’s an awkward term, bio-mothering…your vanilla mommy experiences bleed over into your ageplay, where something funny will happen and it becomes something you want to pursue with a little?
Jess: Give me an example of what you mean.
Spacey: Wanting a big little stegosaurus maybe?
Mako: Ok, there’s a thing I know you’ve said to him that I’ve heard you say to me – “Not a good idea my friend”?
Jess: Not a good idea, my friend. It’s true.
Mako: Love it.
Spacey: It’s true, but she’s been saying that prior.
Jess: I think that there, like anything else, are behaviors that trigger a certain response in me as a mother. I honestly don’t think they change much between the lines of littles and my kids because essentially, who I am as a mother to the core doesn’t change.
Jess: What annoys me about them can very much annoy me about you. You chewing with your mouth open is going to prompt the same response as my kids doing them. My kids making a mess with their toys and refusing to clean them up is going to prompt the same response in me as if you did it. Now, I may take it to another level with you that’s dirty -
Mako: Or painful.
Jess: - and things like that that obviously I would never do with my own children. But the initial response of how I feel like “You’re not listening to me.” (pause, laughter)
Mako: You made me sit up!
Mae: Aw, it’s so cute!
Jess: That I believe the response is very similar. Or the other term I used with you that I know stuck with you was “Imma give you pow-pow.”
Mako: Oh god, yeah.
Spacey: I don’t know what that means, but it sounds painful
Jess: Which I have to credit my girlfriend with, because that was a term she brought into our lives. But I think it’s very effective in both parts of my life.
Mako: It is! It’s funny because I both kind of want some pow-pow and I’m really freaking scared of it, too
Jess: So in that was, yeah, I definitely think there are certain things that cross the line that I think it’s safe to cross the line on.
Mako: Right. I think that maybe part of why ageplay is such edgeplay is that other line-crossing things like Boss and secretary or medical play…So what? If it happens, it’s no big deal, it’s not sacred. I suppose you could lose your job, or have to go have a talk with human resources.
Jess: I think it speaks to the fact though that this isn’t a hat that I wear occasionally. This isn’t a role that I step into specifically for an exchange or specifically for sexual gratification or as my kink. I’m a mom all the time. All the time. I was a mother before my kids were born, and I will probably be a mother until the day I die when they’re grown and I have grandkids. It’s just part of how I’m structured period. So I think that…It’s what I saying, at the end of the day, this is who I am. I’m a mom. It’s the most important that I feel like I will ever have, and I take great pride in that, whether that’s with my biological children or my chosen littles, whatever the case may be.
Mako: I know that my life is definitely richer for our friendship. I do look up to you as an authority figure because of the way you interact with me.
Jess: Thank you.
Mae: Mako, is there anything that you’d like to share about having two mommies?
Mako: Sure. A) It’s wonderful. B) It’s incredibly difficult. It’s complicated. So there’s Missy and there’s Kacie, both of whom are my Mommies, and both of whom have equal authority, and ownership, and agency over me. What’s actually really funny, and interesting, is that they really support each other, and it depends what’s going on. If it’s a night that Missy’s busy doing something and Kacie’s watching me and I’m in the room with Missy and I go to doing something that maybe Kacie wouldn’t want, she’s like “I don’t know, maybe you should go talk to Kacie about that.” And I’m kind of like “Fiiiiine.” I find that where it gets challenging is that it puts some responsibility on me to me sure that I’m giving them equal time and that I don’t unnecessarily….You know how real kids go to their soft touch dad to get the video game? (Jess laughs) Yeah, I know you know about that Jess. Not only can’t I do that, because frankly they will rat me out to each other, but I don’t because I think that it would be destabilizing and dishonoring of the relationship I have with each of them as an individual. So I always have to be kind of responsible about that.
Spacey: And you’re responsible to two other heads as well, so you can’t get away with nothing.
Mako: If you bring up the contact lenses thing again, I’m just going to get mad.
Spacey: Woohoo! You brought up the contact lenses thing!
Mako: Dammit! Do you know, Richard called me out on that today! He listened to the show and he was like “Yeah…” It’s never going to die!
Spacey: That’s right. Just make sure to listen to that episode again.
Mako: The thing is, even at my most little I always have to be cognizant or just aware of emotionally what I’m doing in my relationships. That’s probably the biggest thing. People come to me all the time who don’t have a Mommy or don’t have a Daddy and they say “Wow, you have two Mommies! A) Can I have one?”
Mako: Yes, people have said that to me! You know, they’re not like grapefruit, you don’t just go pick one up at the supermarket.
Mae: That’s so unfortunate.
Spacey: I’ve had people ask me that question about my Mommy before, actually.
Mako: Right.“ Where did you get her?” You just go and buy one, like a Wii or a book. It’s so dehumanizing and gross. I don’t know, having two Mommies is amazing, it just takes things that are normally not as complicated and makes them just a bit more complicated.
Spacey: So speaking of having Mommies, I think a question a lot of people who haven’t had the experience of having a Mommy would like to know is, and this is a toss up for either of these fine ladies that want to answer – so what’s the key to winning your heart?
Jess: Go ahead Marie, you go first.
Mae: Ah, I was just going to point in your direction! I don’t want to say “Don’t be needy,” but don’t be needy is the first one that comes to my mind. It seems to be so prevalent.
Jess: I’d have to say that the bulk of my relationships usually start from a really organic place.
Jess: It’s not forced or set up. So for me, I usually end up finding a relationship when I’m not really looking for one.
Spacey: That’s my experience.
Mae: Stop looking.
Mako: That’s right, single listeners, stop looking.
Jess: That’s what I would say – it would be a situation where I’d probably meet you publicly and I thought you were adorable and well mannered, because we know that’s important, and our paths cross again and there’s a connection and it goes from there. There’s really not a particular attribute that I feel that I could pick out, honestly. Because like I said, things have happened. I never saw Peanut coming. I never thought I would walk away with years of a relationship.
Mae: Also, as all women are different, all Mommies are different. You can’t fit a square peg in a round hole. A lot of people seek the role first. For me, finding someone who cares about me as a person is first and foremost, and finding somebody who cares about me as a Mommy is really close behind, but still second.
Mako: Well sure. And you can see that difference right in our own larger family. I know that in my house, spanking and accountability and discipline is a very large thing, but you guys don’t really do the punish-spanky thing., do you?
Mae: No, not as much.
Spacey: No, spanking here is for fun and kind of a reward.
Jess: I think it’s important to point though out at this moment, though, that we identify as dominant Mommies, not everyone is a dominant Mommy.
Mako: Oh, right.
Jess: I definitely feel as though that should be mentioned. There are those who are not dominant in nature. Being a dominant person is who I am in my life all the time, so it comes along with my being a Mommy. They’re kind of tandem. But for other people, being a Mommy isn’t about that. In my head, immediately, what just popped up is Naland has a shirt that says “Service Daddy.”
Spacey: Yeah, I would say I’ve seen that far more commonly in submissive men in the big role than I’ve seen of women, but there’s certainly no reason why that role couldn’t or doesn’t exist.
Jess: I’m curious to know, from you two, who live with your Mommies all the time, how often does that come into play for you? Is it a consistent thing, every day, or how does it work itself into your lives?
Spacey: Well, I’d say it’s a regular part of our relationship. Wed do interact a ot as peers, of course, but ultimately when push comes to shove, we’re not peers. Mommy’s in charge, and I have to respect that. I refer to her as Mommy pretty much any time we’re together and out of earshot that might offend. She generally makes the rules, although I like to think I’m a pretty good kid, so she doesn’t have to push the rules with me.
Mae: Yeah. I think one thing it goes back to is that a large portion of the time, I’m a very nurturing, dominant, assertive person and he’s a very playful, fun, silly person and there’s kind of a yin-yang where he has some of those traits, too, and I have some of the playful, fun elements, too. They’re in different doses. So I think that in some ways we’re always being ourselves in more of an archetypal level, but then there are times when I’m Mommy and he’s 3 or he’s 6. There are other times when I’m more of a nurturing disciplinarian and he’s more of a playful, silly kid.
Spacey: It’s interesting, too, we were talking earlier today about the way…I don’t consider myself service oriented, per se, but I do serve my Mommy in many ways. I think the difference for me is where that comes from. I don’t serve her, necessarily, because she’s Mommy or because she’s in this archetypal role.
Mako: You just love her.
Spacey: Yeah, I just love her. I just do what I do because I would do this for any person I cared that deeply about.
Mako: Ok, that’s interesting, because I have some similar things going on, but some differences, too. I would say that the three of us in our house in many ways are equals for certain things and at certain times, like when we’re deciding what to have for dinner. But there are just certain things – I’m always respectful, I’m always gentle, and if one of them tells me to go do something, I do it, because I’m obedient. I’m supposed to be obedient. The things that that I get punished for more than any other thing are things where I’m forgetful, or I’m childishly irresponsible.
Jess: Bed time.
Mako: Yes. (sheepishly)
Mae: “I’m not sleepy!”
Mako: Oh, boy. For the most part, I refer to them as Mommy a lot, too. I’m very sensitive to that. I’ll use their actual names, sometimes, too, because I want to be balanced about it. It’s funny, it’s not something we have a big discussion about. When I feel like saying Mommy, more often than not I will. There are some times when we’ll be talking about something like my bedtime, what I’m going to wear that day, good habits I should have, and they’ll give me “the look.” It’s like “Who am I? Who are you?”
Jess: I definitely know what you’re talking about right now.
Mako: Yeah, you’ve seen them do it to me, over and over!
Spacey: It’s like blue steel!
Mako: (laughs) Yeah, exactly. It’s very interesting to me, because it’s like what you said, Jess, it’s very organic. It’s not like we turn it on – like there’s this light switch in our house and when the switch is up, now it’s time to be little and big and when the switch is down, then we’re just regular people – no. It just sloppily messes with itself all the time. Actually, that’s funny, that reminds me of a story I want to tell. So many, many years ago, back when I was with my ex, my first wife, we had hosted this munch and we met this other couple that were a Mommy/baby couple. And they came back to our house and they were very new in the scene, especially the kid, the baby, the guy. At one point we’re all sitting around in my living room and the guy turns to my ex and his Mommy and said “Ok, you guys, DO IT!” It was just so ridiculous and forced and awkward. Do what? Do “the scene”? I personally find ageplay to be really interwoven with the daily stream of my life. There is no scene. Getting reminded to brush my teeth before bed is the scene. Do you guys find that that’s true for you, too?
Mae: Well one of the things I’ve noticed that’s true in my relationship that’s not always true in your relationship with Missy or with Kacie or with other Mommies is that for me, I like my little, especially Spacey, I’ve noticed, to be within arms distance. I will hold his hand crossing the street or across the parking lot. I’m always touching him and making sure that he’s close by where I can keep an eye on him. I’m always giving him hugs or putting my hand on his shoulder if I want him to sit down. It’s a very hands on type relationship, where other Mommies might be a bit more distant or a bit more formal, mine is a more affectionate type of dynamic.
Mako: I think Missy and Kacie and I do that, but my problem is I’m just such a damn chatty social butterfly always flitting all over the place that it’s hard for them.
Spacey: Yes, a lot of time I feel a lot social responsibility when I’m hosting a munch, for instance, or a party or that kind of thing.
Mae: I think littles who are advocates or are involved in the community or are community organizers…they have a special role that can be difficult to balance. To have a unique type of ageplay that isn’t an issue for a lot of littles. If I’m running this littles event, how do I be little at the same time?
Mako: It is so hard.
Spacey: And sometimes, I’m not.
Mae: How do I become involved in the ageplay community as a leader and still have the chance to enjoy my ageplay role?
Mako: I love it when I go to an ageplay event that I myself am not running, and I’m not “the guy.”
Spacey: Yes, that’s why I’m very much looking forward to FroliCon.
Mae: Yes, FroliCon.
Mako: Yeah, and that’s why I’m looking forward to camp this year. Camp has two sessions, I’m only going to the second one. And because I’m not going to be there for the whole thing, I can’t be the point guy, and I’m really glad about that. That doesn’t mean that I’m not going to look out for people, and make sure they’re having a good time, and if I see someone sad or whose needs aren’t being met I’m not going to step up and do something about it, because that’s just who I am. But it means that I get to get down in the mud and get dirty and swim in the pool naked and have a good old time, and not have to really focus on it. I’ll just be able to do it as it happens.
Spacey: We hope so.
Mako: Thank God.
Mae: Speaking of ageplay events, one thing I’ve noticed is that there are many ageplay events that are very littles focused –they have the games and the activities. There are moments where myself, for example, our friend Maya as well, have felt as though we’re feeling kind of left out because our littles are off doing things that are exclusive to littles…
Mako: Right, and what do you get to do?
Mae: Yes, yes, exactly.
Jess: We need some love. The Mommies…we need a group.
Spacey: I would love to hear if you guys have any thoughts about kinds of activities that would help bring you together or things that you might enjoy. Absolutely, I agree that that’s often overlooked. Part of the problem is that being a little trying to organize an activity doesn’t give me a lot of perspective on how to organize that for the bigs.
Mako: How can we serve you?
Mae: I think that’s one of the reasons why I enjoy putting together littles activities. It gives them an opportunity to be little, but it also gives me an opportunity to have some responsibilities as well.
Mako: Flex your Mommy muscle.
Jess: A very revealing moment I had was at this past Floating World. I went to this class – The Notes of the Reluctant Daddy, taught by Nayland. He took a board at the front of the class and said “Give me adjectives that describe a little” – fun and loving and carefree and all this great stuff. Then he said “Give me adjectives that describe a big” and it was responsible and grounded and…
Spacey: Stressed out!
Mako: What a buzz kill! Overworked!
Jess: Nayland turned to the class and very matter-of-factly said “Which does it sound like it’s fun to do here? Pick one. Based on adjectives, which one would you want to do?”
Mako: I think we got to talk to that guy
Jess: It really brought to my mind that it’s true! It made me do some internal homework around what it is that I got out of things. Because there are absolutely days when I wake up that I would love to turn off the fact that I worry about everybody and I think about things, overthink things, and want to be there to help people. I have my own life to live and my own kids to take care of and things. I definitely walked out of there thinking “Huh.” Make a list of the things that make it good for me! Some of those things are in there. I enjoy being a responsible party. I enjoy being consistent because they’re characteristics of me as a person. But when you put it on paper right and it’s in front of you like that, it’s kind of funny in that moment.
Spacey: So I’d be curious what you’d like to do when you get together with other bigs.
Jess: I think bigs like to tell stories about what our littles did that are funny. That’s definitely an entertaining part of it. But there’s also a part of it that’s…like any other relationship, there are bumps in the road, and it would be nice to have input from other bigs around that. I’m presently not in an ageplay relationship, but I certainly have experience from my previous ones. From that aspect, and to know that there are other people out there that not only like to do the fun and the lighthearted stuff, but also so I don’t feel so taboo and left of center, so to speak, for enjoying taking advantage of my little. It reinforces that I’m not the only one.
Mako: So it sounds like what you need is community and association and some service.
Spacey: And maybe some coffee
Jess: I remember when I first started going to events with Peanut. I remember someone actually looking at me once. I was with JR, and the size difference alone probably makes her actually look like our child. Someone came up to us and said “What are you doing with a child here??” And I was like “Ummmmm she is my child, but she’s not my child.” I felt a lot less well received when I first started, which made it harder. But now I think ageplay has made huge leaps and bounds community wise and in acceptance through events. I think it’s awesome because it’s so much easier for me now to get my fix, so to speak.
Spacey: I definitely think visibility has improved.
Jess: Absolutely. I agree.
Mae: I think that Mommies and Daddies uniquely do for their littles is see them as littles. Somebody who’s an adult baby or a grown up little might look in the mirror and may not see themselves the way they are on the inside. One of the things that bigs do is see the littles as the age they wish to be.
Mako: Yeah, I’m with you there.
Jess: I totally agree with you. I remember being at camp with Kevin. It was something about the way I changed his diaper, whether it was I threw up his legs a certain way or something that triggered a response that made him feel so much smaller than me.
Mako: Yes, I get this.
Jess: In my mind, I never even thought about it. I was hiking his legs up out of the way so I could get to what I needed to get to. It wasn’t necessarily about that. But later on when we discussed that he was like “I totally loved when you threw me around, pretty much. Just like you would a child. You spread my legs, you threw them up.” It didn’t register with me at the time but it did after we talked about it – I made him feel small.
Mako: That’s a big thing for me too. I’m 6’2” and I’m a big, tall, strong guy. It’s nice to be made to feel little. It’s super super nice.
Spacey: I think there’s something about the fact that you did it naturally without thinking about that helped push the buttons, there.
Mako: Oh, yeah. I think that’s a really big part of it, too. I know that for me the more I can take my hands off the wheel…There’s a huge difference between someone asking me if my diaper’s wet versus just going in and checking for themselves regardless of whether I want them to or not or if I’m busy or not. I want to be interrupted. I want my opinion to not matter. I think it gets back to that thing that that guy said in my living room. “Ok, make it not matter for me.” That’s awkward, but I understand what he was getting at in that awkward way. “Please take control away from me and care about me.” I think that’s what we’re talking about.
Spacey: It would’ve been much nicer if he’d said it like that.
Mako: People are awkward.
Jess: In that moment, it manifested itself not in quite the best way but I’m sure that underneath it was kind of like a cry for “This is what I’m looking for.”
Mako: It’s true! I’m sorry, my thought process just derailed. Go ahead, brother.
Spacey: Quite alright.
Mae: I think part of what you’re talking about is sometimes referred to as consensual nonconsent, where you agree that you won’t agree, and we all agree to that, and then we do it anyway, or something along those lines.
Mako: Right, I just did it!
Mae: I think if somebody you didn’t know or didn’t feel comfortable with went ahead and did that, it would be creepy and it would be invasive. But these are people that you trust and you give them that trust and that allowance and that vulnerability. That’s a big part of what bigs get out of it – they get to experience that power from the vulnerability and the trust that you give them.
Mako: You know what, you just reminded me of what it was that I had derailed from! Years ago, one of my first experiences of being a big was this thing when I was at this camp. Not Camp Crucible, this was a different thing, and this girl had approached me to change her diaper. I had never done it before and I really wanted to, and it was really nice. Yes, it was sexual in all the ways that you might imagine it was sexual. It’s nice to see somebody’s vagina and to smell it and all that happy stuff. The smell of pee and powder is great!
Jess: Dirty sniffer.
Mako: I am a dirty sniffer, it’s true. But there was this other thing – she needed me. She couldn’t do this by herself. It was really great to lay her down and take off her diaper and clean her up and take care of her. And there was this way that she looked at me that just made my heart burst open. It’s like that feeling you get when you look at pictures of kittens, like a hundred times more powerful. I was like “If you could make that into a cookie, I would eat the whole box.”
Mae: I recently used an example of that for compersion. That’s it’s similar to seeing siblings be nice to each other when they think people are not paying attention, or some elderly people who have been in love for fifty years and you just feel their joy.
Mako: Oh yeah.
Spacey: So I think we’re coming to a close here, but I definitely want to ask one last toss up question. Do you guys have any advice for people who are out there looking for folks like you?
Mako: You both just want to jump all over that, huh?
Mae: I think self acceptance the willingness to be who you are is the first step. If you’re a little and people see you being that playful, fun, silly person and see how comfortable you are with yourself, they’ll be drawn to you and they’ll want to be around you because they see you’re happy with who you are. I think that the second thing, of course, is being willing to be around other people being comfortable with who you are – munches, play parties, events, and so on.
Spacey: Right. Get out, be seen kind of thing. Have a good time.
Mako: Right. It’s that thing about presenting your authentic self to someone else, not with an agenda. “I see you’re female. BE MY MOMMY!” No, that’s horrible. “I’m just a nice person and let’s be friends” Because at the heart of it, if you’re someone’s Mommy, they are your friend.
Mae: Also, when you’re responsible for who you are, you let other people be responsible for who they are. Maybe they’re not comfortable with ageplay, but you let them not be comfortable and come to you on their own terms, where I think a lot of people are reaching out for people who may not be ready. I think being ready and going through that journey, it’s important to not push people beyond what they’re comfortable with and let them come to you on your own terms, and be willing to do the same.
Mako: Oh, right. Because when you encourage their cake…Yeah, I’m bringing the cake out again one last time. When you encourage their cake, you can put more icing on it later, you don’t have to have all the icing all at once.
Jess: I agree. I like to think of myself as a rare breed. But there are definitely Mommies out there looking for littles and I would have to agree with Marie that the feeling of being genuine and invested in who you are and trying to make that better by being in a relationship with someone and growing and being present in the community…all these things all add up to making yourself more visible…
Jess: I think that that is attractive. Like I said, I go back to the organic thing for me, it’s really organic. So, good luck!
Mako: Yeah, so get out there, folks.
Jess: And they’re out there! The Mommies are out there.
Spacey: And don’t count on those personal ads, ok?
Mako: Awwww please don’t. Get out there and be real.
Spacey: Alright. So we sort of talked about this in the beginning of the show, but let’s hit it again. Miss Jess, how might people be able to get in contact with you?
Jess: You can absolutely contact me through my FetLife account, MJ5, as well as my email address, firstname.lastname@example.org.
Mae: My email address is email@example.com and I’m on FetLife as darklingmae as well,.
Jess: Thank you so much for having me guys, I loved it!
Mako: Aw, thank you Jess.
Spacey: Absolutely our pleasure. Thanks to everyone.
Mako: And I just want you to know, I’m going to go downstairs and have dinner and chew with my mouth closed.
Jess: Very good. Brownie points.
Spacey: Alright, so if you’re looking to learn about our show, I hope you’ll visit our website biglittepodcast.com, and you can also reach us, your hosts Mako and I at firstname.lastname@example.org. We have a discussion board on FetLife, actually, if you look for the discussion board The Big Little Podcast, you can find where we’re talking about current upcoming shows and that kind of thing and get announcements about what’s being updated. And, of course, we have the show voicemail line so if you’d like to leave a comment in your own voice…
Mako: You can do so at 678-421-4256. However, if you do, please be sure to let us know if it’s ok to use it on the show.
Spacey: Ok. And I think that about wraps us up.
Jess and Mae: Yaaaay!
Mae: Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
Mako: Aw, it was fabulous, you guys! So terrific.